Deity Existence

[Jikanu]

I have reaqd a few of the earlier pages and some people have been asking for proof that God exists.
Pretty soon there'll be proof he doesn't.
The Particle Accelerator.
When they eventually get it up and running, They will collide particles to try to create the 'Higgs Boson'
Also known as the 'God Particle'
This is the thing that apparantly gives us mass, that makes us here. So it proves that God didn't make us. Evolution has already disproven Adam and Eve although some people still believe it, Heaven in the skies above us was disproved when we went into space More and more holes are being poked in the mythical story.
I know someone is going to say it, "What about if Heaven is billions of lightyears away/another world ??"
The amount of energy that is needed to transport someone's ''Soul'' or ''spirit'' that far would be immense, how does ''God'' get this energy?

And people don't choose to be Gay. You can't choose your sexuality.

1. I've previously stated that God can use science to do his work, so why couldnt he have used this "God Particle"? and i also heard that it might instead make a black hole or something and wipe us all out... so good luck with that.

2. Adam and Eve can be metaphorical, also previously stated. they could be the first fully evolved humans. a day for God could be a million years for us, for all we know.

3. God's infinitely powerful, remember?

4. i never made an attack on Gay's, so i dont really need to respond that one..

But instead of saying "I don't understand yet..." and then trying to suss it out with the tools at hand (observation, reason) you tie it all up with a nice bow and say "God did it."

How's that any different than saying this?



last thing: i just found this quote online.

"The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle."
Michael Denton,
Molecular Biologist. Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. Adler and Adler.

[Vasu]

I have reaqd a few of the earlier pages and some people have been asking for proof that God exists.
Pretty soon there'll be proof he doesn't.
The Particle Accelerator.
When they eventually get it up and running, They will collide particles to try to create the 'Higgs Boson'
Also known as the 'God Particle'
This is the thing that apparantly gives us mass, that makes us here. So it proves that God didn't make us. Evolution has already disproven Adam and Eve although some people still believe it, Heaven in the skies above us was disproved when we went into space More and more holes are being poked in the mythical story.
I know someone is going to say it, "What about if Heaven is billions of lightyears away/another world ??"
The amount of energy that is needed to transport someone's ''Soul'' or ''spirit'' that far would be immense, how does ''God'' get this energy?

And people don't choose to be Gay. You can't choose your sexuality.

Like Jik said, the theists will just claim that god created the god particle.

The same law applies to your "Big Bang" theory. It created everything, so what created that? it has just about sense to it as God does. There's some things we simply dont understand yet, so there's no real argument i can provide for that. it's like asking Mendel to prove genetics before he had a chance to test his theory.

We do not know yet. And "goddidit" is NOT an answer.

And there is no good in the world without some bad. you cant have light without darkness. People have to make mistakes and learn to gain the want to use free will for good.

This does not address my point. Let me rephrase.


God can do anything, and is also a good person, but does not stop us from doing evil because he would rather that we learn for ourselves, that what we are doing is bad. Cool?

But since god also knows everything, he will know that Mr. A is a good person at heart and will change, but Mr. B is a psychopath, and cannot fit into society. So why can't he stop Mr. B?

1. I've previously stated that God can use science to do his work, so why couldnt he have used this "God Particle"? and i also heard that it might instead make a black hole or something and wipe us all out... so good luck with that.

Yeah, go ahead and believe every frigging rumour you hear.

2. Adam and Eve can be metaphorical, also previously stated. they could be the first fully evolved humans. a day for God could be a million years for us, for all we know.

Like I said, the "figurative" bin is the ultimate cop-out for all bible enthusiasts. Who are you to say which part of the Bible is figurative? I can go ahead and say that Jesus didn't exist, and it was all figurative to show us that the cruel times of the OT were over.

3. God's infinitely powerful, remember?

That is not possible, remember?

How's that any different than saying this?

It's different because the theory of the big bang was not reaches with intention of reaching the theory of the big bang. It was reached by scientific inquiry with the evidence we have at present, with no prior knowledge that such a thing could have happened. However the Bible was written with the full decision that god existed, and is therefore not scientific proof.

last thing: i just found this quote online.

"The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle."
Michael Denton,
Molecular Biologist. Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. Adler and Adler.

Yes, it would indeed be a miracle, if ours was the only solar system, the only planet, revolving around the only star. However there are millions of galaxies out there, and maybe even more universes (though there is no evidence of that, so I will not press it).

Like I said, if you see a closet with trillions of kinds of clothes of all sizes shapes and colours, you shouldn't be surprised to find one that fits.

[Jikanu]

Like Jik said, the theists will just claim that god created the god particle.




We do not know yet. And "goddidit" is NOT an answer.




This does not address my point. Let me rephrase.


God can do anything, and is also a good person, but does not stop us from doing evil because he would rather that we learn for ourselves, that what we are doing is bad. Cool?

But since god also knows everything, he will know that Mr. A is a good person at heart and will change, but Mr. B is a psychopath, and cannot fit into society. So why can't he stop Mr. B?




Yeah, go ahead and believe every frigging rumour you hear.




Like I said, the "figurative" bin is the ultimate cop-out for all bible enthusiasts. Who are you to say which part of the Bible is figurative? I can go ahead and say that Jesus didn't exist, and it was all figurative to show us that the cruel times of the OT were over.




That is not possible, remember?






It's different because the theory of the big bang was not reaches with intention of reaching the theory of the big bang. It was reached by scientific inquiry with the evidence we have at present, with no prior knowledge that such a thing could have happened. However the Bible was written with the full decision that god existed, and is therefore not scientific proof.





Yes, it would indeed be a miracle, if ours was the only solar system, the only planet, revolving around the only star. However there are millions of galaxies out there, and maybe even more universes (though there is no evidence of that, so I will not press it).

Like I said, if you see a closet with trillions of kinds of clothes of all sizes shapes and colours, you shouldn't be surprised to find one that fits.

1. Why is it not an answer? it's just as plausible as everything that never was miraculously exploding.

and as for the "rumor" i've heard it through the news. not much of a rumor.

2. there is in fact proof that Jesus existed; the only thing that is questioned are his miracles. he's even taught about in history books in school.

3. you never proved that it's impossible; i poked holes in your theories that made it possible.

4. it wasnt like someone just chose to go out and start preaching a falsehood. There was most likely some form of evidence at the time.

5. i think it was more the fact that all these things came together absolutely perfectly, the stars, the planets, everything, in spite of being so complex.

How can nothingness explode? explain that to me. how can pure nothingness, no matter, dark matter, nothing, have heat, spontaneously combust, and form everything in the known universe? you saying that it was found because of scientific theory is even worse of a cop-out than anything you've accused me of, because your theory MUST follow the laws of physics.

[Vasu]

1. Why is it not an answer? it's just as plausible as everything that never was miraculously exploding.

Because then you would have to explain how god miraculously came about.

and as for the "rumor" i've heard it through the news. not much of a rumor.

http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.3414.pdf
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0627175348.htm

2. there is in fact proof that Jesus existed; the only thing that is questioned are his miracles. he's even taught about in history books in school.

Fine then, I'll say that Moses is figurative, Lot is figurative, Baal was figurative, and every character in the Bible for whom there is no proof was just figurative. That game can be played by two.

3. you never proved that it's impossible; i poked holes in your theories that made it possible.

What "holes" did you poke in the statement that omnipotence is impossible?

You just dropped the issue after a few posts, just like you did not bother backing up those assumptions I mentioned.


4. it wasnt like someone just chose to go out and start preaching a falsehood. There was most likely some form of evidence at the time.


Such as? And can you prove that religion was not started for political reasons? If you read "The Foundation" by Isaac Asimov, then you'll see how well religion can be used to make a platform for a strong kingdom.

5. i think it was more the fact that all these things came together absolutely perfectly, the stars, the planets, everything, in spite of being so complex.

And how complex would god need to be to do all this? This only creates another infinite regression.

How can nothingness explode? explain that to me. how can pure nothingness, no matter, dark matter, nothing, have heat, spontaneously combust, and form everything in the known universe? you saying that it was found because of scientific theory is even worse of a cop-out than anything you've accused me of, because your theory MUST follow the laws of physics.

Nothingness did not explode. A singularity exploded. How did that singularity come about?

Me: We do not know yet, but hopefully with more advances, we can begin to explore that in the future.

You: God did it.


And I can throw this question right back at you. How did god come about? How did absolute nothingness turn into an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and a whole lot of other omni's being?

[lamchopz]

I thought "Michael Denton" was a bit familiar to me and it was:

Michael John Denton (born 25 August 1943) is a British-Australian author and biochemist. In 1973, Denton received his PhD in Biochemistry from King's College London.[1]

Denton wrote Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1985), which was instrumental in starting the Intelligent Design movement,[2] and Nature's Destiny (1998). [3]

Denton was an influential proponent of Intelligent Design and is a former Senior Fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, hub of the Intelligent Design movement.[4]

Denton's views have changed over the years. His second book Nature's Destiny argues for a law-like evolutionary unfolding of life and therefore assumes evolution as a given.[5] He no longer openly associates with Discovery, and the Institute no longer lists him as a fellow.[6]

link

[Jikanu]

Because then you would have to explain how god miraculously came about.



http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.3414.pdf
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0627175348.htm





Fine then, I'll say that Moses is figurative, Lot is figurative, Baal was figurative, and every character in the Bible for whom there is no proof was just figurative. That game can be played by two.




What "holes" did you poke in the statement that omnipotence is impossible?

You just dropped the issue after a few posts, just like you did not bother backing up those assumptions I mentioned.


4. it wasnt like someone just chose to go out and start preaching a falsehood. There was most likely some form of evidence at the time.


Such as? And can you prove that religion was not started for political reasons? If you read "The Foundation" by Isaac Asimov, then you'll see how well religion can be used to make a platform for a strong kingdom.




And how complex would god need to be to do all this? This only creates another infinite regression.




Nothingness did not explode. A singularity exploded. How did that singularity come about?

Me: We do not know yet, but hopefully with more advances, we can begin to explore that in the future.

You: God did it.


And I can throw this question right back at you. How did god come about? How did absolute nothingness turn into an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and a whole lot of other omni's being?

1. Ask him, it's not like i've ever had a direct conversation with Him/Her in which i could ask where he/she came from. O_o

2. a. Moses DOES have a historical basis too.
b. Lot could be figurative for the inclination to take the easier path which leads to sin
c. Baal WAS figurative. the golden calf was meant to show God's strength, but at the time, God had put a ban on making an image of him.

3. Perhaps God himself talked to him? And you could claim that it was schizophrenia, but that's simple closed-mindedness.

4. *sigh* im tired of discussing this. God CAN be omnipotent AND omniscient at the same time, IF HE'S ALSO ALL-KNOWING AND COMPLETELY WISE. you must understand that he has the POWER to change his decision, but he's all knowing and all good, so his path is completely good and completely right in the first place, so he wont.

Im heading to bed. be back around 6-7 PST.


EDIT: Lam, i dont know about the quoted person, i just thought the quote itself made sense. i found it while looking up that picture i used that was discussing the big bang vs. creationism. i personally think both theories are extremely weak without the other.

[Vasu]

1. Ask him, it's not like i've ever had a direct conversation with Him/Her in which i could ask where he/she came from. O_o

Ooh, now why didn't I EVER think of that! Could you ask him for me? I don't think I'm in his good books.

This is BY FAR the STUPIDEST cop out I've seen in ANY discussion.

No, you go ask the singularity where it came from.

2. a. Moses DOES have a historical basis too.
b. Lot could be figurative for the inclination to take the easier path which leads to sin
c. Baal WAS figurative. the golden calf was meant to show God's strength, but at the time, God had put a ban on making an image of him.

The question stands. Who are you to pick and decide which parts were figurative? Before evolution was proposed, Genesis was solid truth. After that, it's figurative. Before we knew what caused eclipses, it was god. After that, it was god making the planets move. Notice a pattern here?

3. Perhaps God himself talked to him? And you could claim that it was schizophrenia, but that's simple closed-mindedness.

Unfortunately, we have nothing except his own word to suggest god talked to him. And if god is so powerful, why can't he talk to all of us?

4. *sigh* im tired of discussing this. God CAN be omnipotent AND omniscient at the same time, IF HE'S ALSO ALL-KNOWING AND COMPLETELY WISE. you must understand that he has the POWER to change his decision, but he's all knowing and all good, so his path is completely good and completely right in the first place, so he wont.

I did not understand it, but I dropped it. What I was talking about was that absolute omnipotence was impossible, i.e the heavy stone, complex equation thing.


And once again, you have abandoned the free will issue, and the complexity of god issue. Exactly how many times do I have to tell you to reply to the full post?

[Jikanu]

Ooh, now why didn't I EVER think of that! Could you ask him for me? I don't think I'm in his good books.

This is BY FAR the STUPIDEST cop out I've seen in ANY discussion.

No, you go ask the singularity where it came from.




The question stands. Who are you to pick and decide which parts were figurative? Before evolution was proposed, Genesis was solid truth. After that, it's figurative. Before we knew what caused eclipses, it was god. After that, it was god making the planets move. Notice a pattern here?




Unfortunately, we have nothing except his own word to suggest god talked to him. And if god is so powerful, why can't he talk to all of us?



I did not understand it, but I dropped it. What I was talking about was that absolute omnipotence was impossible, i.e the heavy stone, complex equation thing.


And once again, you have abandoned the free will issue, and the complexity of god issue. Exactly how many times do I have to tell you to reply to the full post?

1. it was made to be like that to respond to the pure stupidity of the question. you can't know where something that's always been there comes from. it's like asking "where did energy come from"? it's something that no one really knows now, especially not a 13 year old who's never gotten to study this stuff deeply.

and i didnt see the freewill issue in your post, sorry if it seemed as if i was ignoring it. upon reviewing your last post i still didnt see it... sorry to be nubbish, but could you point out what exactly you were speaking of?

2. i dont decide the doctrine on metaphores; i simply form my beliefs around what makes sense. and the Big Bang without some form of Deity, whether it be God or Brahma or Zeus or whatever, makes 0 sense.

3. Perhaps he is talking to us, but we just arent listening at the right times.

4. Weight is, once again, meaningless to God. size and weight arent a factor whatsoever. i.e. it wouldnt matter how big he made it, he could still lift it, because physical properties mean nothing.

[Vasu]

1. it was made to be like that to respond to the pure stupidity of the question. you can't know where something that's always been there comes from. it's like asking "where did energy come from"? it's something that no one really knows now, especially not a 13 year old who's never gotten to study this stuff deeply.

Exactly, and asking me to explain how everything just came from "chance" when we don't have enough technology or power to explore what created the universe (or the singularity, if you will) is equally stupid.

and i didnt see the freewill issue in your post, sorry if it seemed as if i was ignoring it. upon reviewing your last post i still didnt see it... sorry to be nubbish, but could you point out what exactly you were speaking of?

Like Jik said, the theists will just claim that god created the god particle.




We do not know yet. And "goddidit" is NOT an answer.




This does not address my point. Let me rephrase.


God can do anything, and is also a good person, but does not stop us from doing evil because he would rather that we learn for ourselves, that what we are doing is bad. Cool?

But since god also knows everything, he will know that Mr. A is a good person at heart and will change, but Mr. B is a psychopath, and cannot fit into society. So why can't he stop Mr. B?




Yeah, go ahead and believe every frigging rumour you hear.




Like I said, the "figurative" bin is the ultimate cop-out for all bible enthusiasts. Who are you to say which part of the Bible is figurative? I can go ahead and say that Jesus didn't exist, and it was all figurative to show us that the cruel times of the OT were over.




That is not possible, remember?






It's different because the theory of the big bang was not reaches with intention of reaching the theory of the big bang. It was reached by scientific inquiry with the evidence we have at present, with no prior knowledge that such a thing could have happened. However the Bible was written with the full decision that god existed, and is therefore not scientific proof.





Yes, it would indeed be a miracle, if ours was the only solar system, the only planet, revolving around the only star. However there are millions of galaxies out there, and maybe even more universes (though there is no evidence of that, so I will not press it).

Like I said, if you see a closet with trillions of kinds of clothes of all sizes shapes and colours, you shouldn't be surprised to find one that fits.

2. i dont decide the doctrine on metaphores; i simply form my beliefs around what makes sense. and the Big Bang without some form of Deity, whether it be God or Brahma or Zeus or whatever, makes 0 sense.

And deity without some sort of creator for it too also makes no sense.

3. Perhaps he is talking to us, but we just arent listening at the right times.

Seeing as he knows everything, he could talk when he knows we're listening.

4. Weight is, once again, meaningless to God. size and weight arent a factor whatsoever. i.e. it wouldnt matter how big he made it, he could still lift it, because physical properties mean nothing.

So, in effect, god cannot make a stone so heavy/big that even he cannot lift it. Right?

And like Hrae said, I could form an example where physical size and stuff are not factors.

Can god create an equation so complex that even he cannot solve it?

[Jikanu]

Exactly, and asking me to explain how everything just came from "chance" when we don't have enough technology or power to explore what created the universe (or the singularity, if you will) is equally stupid.









And deity without some sort of creator for it too also makes no sense.




Seeing as he knows everything, he could talk when he knows we're listening.




So, in effect, god cannot make a stone so heavy/big that even he cannot lift it. Right?

And like Hrae said, I could form an example where physical size and stuff are not factors.

Can god create an equation so complex that even he cannot solve it?

he has no limit to his knowlege, so complexity isnt a factor v.v

And most violent psychotic diseases are formed usually by birth defect, brain damage, or being pushed over the edge, arent they? please inform me if im wrong, but if im right, these are all other people's free will.

And at least you admit that you have just as much of a basis as i do.

And lastly, That's not neccesarilly true, since a deity isnt a physical being, but a spiritual one.

And perhaps we simply are NEVER open to listen. nowadays, peoples lives are filled with tv, computer, everythings so busy that they have little time to be open to listen.