Deity Existence

[Vasu]

1. Ask him, it's not like i've ever had a direct conversation with Him/Her in which i could ask where he/she came from. O_o

Ooh, now why didn't I EVER think of that! Could you ask him for me? I don't think I'm in his good books.

This is BY FAR the STUPIDEST cop out I've seen in ANY discussion.

No, you go ask the singularity where it came from.

2. a. Moses DOES have a historical basis too.
b. Lot could be figurative for the inclination to take the easier path which leads to sin
c. Baal WAS figurative. the golden calf was meant to show God's strength, but at the time, God had put a ban on making an image of him.

The question stands. Who are you to pick and decide which parts were figurative? Before evolution was proposed, Genesis was solid truth. After that, it's figurative. Before we knew what caused eclipses, it was god. After that, it was god making the planets move. Notice a pattern here?

3. Perhaps God himself talked to him? And you could claim that it was schizophrenia, but that's simple closed-mindedness.

Unfortunately, we have nothing except his own word to suggest god talked to him. And if god is so powerful, why can't he talk to all of us?

4. *sigh* im tired of discussing this. God CAN be omnipotent AND omniscient at the same time, IF HE'S ALSO ALL-KNOWING AND COMPLETELY WISE. you must understand that he has the POWER to change his decision, but he's all knowing and all good, so his path is completely good and completely right in the first place, so he wont.

I did not understand it, but I dropped it. What I was talking about was that absolute omnipotence was impossible, i.e the heavy stone, complex equation thing.


And once again, you have abandoned the free will issue, and the complexity of god issue. Exactly how many times do I have to tell you to reply to the full post?

[Jikanu]

Ooh, now why didn't I EVER think of that! Could you ask him for me? I don't think I'm in his good books.

This is BY FAR the STUPIDEST cop out I've seen in ANY discussion.

No, you go ask the singularity where it came from.




The question stands. Who are you to pick and decide which parts were figurative? Before evolution was proposed, Genesis was solid truth. After that, it's figurative. Before we knew what caused eclipses, it was god. After that, it was god making the planets move. Notice a pattern here?




Unfortunately, we have nothing except his own word to suggest god talked to him. And if god is so powerful, why can't he talk to all of us?



I did not understand it, but I dropped it. What I was talking about was that absolute omnipotence was impossible, i.e the heavy stone, complex equation thing.


And once again, you have abandoned the free will issue, and the complexity of god issue. Exactly how many times do I have to tell you to reply to the full post?

1. it was made to be like that to respond to the pure stupidity of the question. you can't know where something that's always been there comes from. it's like asking "where did energy come from"? it's something that no one really knows now, especially not a 13 year old who's never gotten to study this stuff deeply.

and i didnt see the freewill issue in your post, sorry if it seemed as if i was ignoring it. upon reviewing your last post i still didnt see it... sorry to be nubbish, but could you point out what exactly you were speaking of?

2. i dont decide the doctrine on metaphores; i simply form my beliefs around what makes sense. and the Big Bang without some form of Deity, whether it be God or Brahma or Zeus or whatever, makes 0 sense.

3. Perhaps he is talking to us, but we just arent listening at the right times.

4. Weight is, once again, meaningless to God. size and weight arent a factor whatsoever. i.e. it wouldnt matter how big he made it, he could still lift it, because physical properties mean nothing.

[Vasu]

1. it was made to be like that to respond to the pure stupidity of the question. you can't know where something that's always been there comes from. it's like asking "where did energy come from"? it's something that no one really knows now, especially not a 13 year old who's never gotten to study this stuff deeply.

Exactly, and asking me to explain how everything just came from "chance" when we don't have enough technology or power to explore what created the universe (or the singularity, if you will) is equally stupid.

and i didnt see the freewill issue in your post, sorry if it seemed as if i was ignoring it. upon reviewing your last post i still didnt see it... sorry to be nubbish, but could you point out what exactly you were speaking of?

Like Jik said, the theists will just claim that god created the god particle.




We do not know yet. And "goddidit" is NOT an answer.




This does not address my point. Let me rephrase.


God can do anything, and is also a good person, but does not stop us from doing evil because he would rather that we learn for ourselves, that what we are doing is bad. Cool?

But since god also knows everything, he will know that Mr. A is a good person at heart and will change, but Mr. B is a psychopath, and cannot fit into society. So why can't he stop Mr. B?




Yeah, go ahead and believe every frigging rumour you hear.




Like I said, the "figurative" bin is the ultimate cop-out for all bible enthusiasts. Who are you to say which part of the Bible is figurative? I can go ahead and say that Jesus didn't exist, and it was all figurative to show us that the cruel times of the OT were over.




That is not possible, remember?






It's different because the theory of the big bang was not reaches with intention of reaching the theory of the big bang. It was reached by scientific inquiry with the evidence we have at present, with no prior knowledge that such a thing could have happened. However the Bible was written with the full decision that god existed, and is therefore not scientific proof.





Yes, it would indeed be a miracle, if ours was the only solar system, the only planet, revolving around the only star. However there are millions of galaxies out there, and maybe even more universes (though there is no evidence of that, so I will not press it).

Like I said, if you see a closet with trillions of kinds of clothes of all sizes shapes and colours, you shouldn't be surprised to find one that fits.

2. i dont decide the doctrine on metaphores; i simply form my beliefs around what makes sense. and the Big Bang without some form of Deity, whether it be God or Brahma or Zeus or whatever, makes 0 sense.

And deity without some sort of creator for it too also makes no sense.

3. Perhaps he is talking to us, but we just arent listening at the right times.

Seeing as he knows everything, he could talk when he knows we're listening.

4. Weight is, once again, meaningless to God. size and weight arent a factor whatsoever. i.e. it wouldnt matter how big he made it, he could still lift it, because physical properties mean nothing.

So, in effect, god cannot make a stone so heavy/big that even he cannot lift it. Right?

And like Hrae said, I could form an example where physical size and stuff are not factors.

Can god create an equation so complex that even he cannot solve it?

[Jikanu]

Exactly, and asking me to explain how everything just came from "chance" when we don't have enough technology or power to explore what created the universe (or the singularity, if you will) is equally stupid.









And deity without some sort of creator for it too also makes no sense.




Seeing as he knows everything, he could talk when he knows we're listening.




So, in effect, god cannot make a stone so heavy/big that even he cannot lift it. Right?

And like Hrae said, I could form an example where physical size and stuff are not factors.

Can god create an equation so complex that even he cannot solve it?

he has no limit to his knowlege, so complexity isnt a factor v.v

And most violent psychotic diseases are formed usually by birth defect, brain damage, or being pushed over the edge, arent they? please inform me if im wrong, but if im right, these are all other people's free will.

And at least you admit that you have just as much of a basis as i do.

And lastly, That's not neccesarilly true, since a deity isnt a physical being, but a spiritual one.

And perhaps we simply are NEVER open to listen. nowadays, peoples lives are filled with tv, computer, everythings so busy that they have little time to be open to listen.

[Vasu]

he has no limit to his knowlege, so complexity isnt a factor v.v

No, my point is that you claim the universe is so complex that someone had to make it, but such a being would have to be incredibly complex itself, creating another infinite regression. And that brings us back to doe-oh-oh-oh. Doe, a deer, a female deer....

And most violent psychotic diseases are formed usually by birth defect, brain damage, or being pushed over the edge, arent they? please inform me if im wrong, but if im right, these are all other people's free will.

I'm sorry, birth defects are someone else's fault? What are you talking about?

And at least you admit that you have just as much of a basis as i do.

*sigh* I believe that the big bang did happen. But I am not saying the singularity just popped there. I am saying I do not know. You are saying god did it, and that you do not know where god came from. Why are you adding an extra, unnecessary factor? As per Occam's razor, this should be shaved right out of the equation.

And lastly, That's not neccesarilly true, since a deity isnt a physical being, but a spiritual one.

What isn't true? The equation thing? And lastly, define a "spiritual being".

And perhaps we simply are NEVER open to listen. nowadays, peoples lives are filled with tv, computer, everythings so busy that they have little time to be open to listen.

Since he can do anything as well, he can make us listen even when we aren't "open" to it.

And I would like you to define being "open" too.

[Ivramire]

This is all starting to sound really familiar.

[lamchopz]

This is all starting to sound really familiar.

I guess it's unfortunate that we don't have any Muslim members that participate in this thread since they'll help broaden this topic even more and further the scope that is being considered. We will then have a chance to explore the identity of the Deity in each religion.

[Jikanu]

No, my point is that you claim the universe is so complex that someone had to make it, but such a being would have to be incredibly complex itself, creating another infinite regression. And that brings us back to doe-oh-oh-oh. Doe, a deer, a female deer....




I'm sorry, birth defects are someone else's fault? What are you talking about?




*sigh* I believe that the big bang did happen. But I am not saying the singularity just popped there. I am saying I do not know. You are saying god did it, and that you do not know where god came from. Why are you adding an extra, unnecessary factor? As per Occam's razor, this should be shaved right out of the equation.




What isn't true? The equation thing? And lastly, define a "spiritual being".



Since he can do anything as well, he can make us listen even when we aren't "open" to it.

And I would like you to define being "open" too.

i was referring to the equation in the first paragraph you quoted.

Being open, i guess, would be defined as quieting down everything around you, and just doing your best to feel him and what he wants you to do. then again, im not a priest or anything, so i dont know the church's doctrine.

A spirit is something that transcends the physical form. i think that perhaps what the other guy (i think it was Aiden who said it) said about it being made from pure energy may be accurate.

And no matter what, the physical thing had to be created by something, and for something to not have to be created by something else, it has to defy the laws of science. The only thing i can really guess could do that would be something that transcends the physical form, therefore ending the chain needed in the big bang. Therefore, any previous or subsequent universes that may or may not have collapsed on themselves resulting in another big bang would be what Occam's Razor shaved off, in theory. i havent done much research.. if you're ever in an area where the priests are more open minded, you should debate this with them, really.

as for birth defects, arent they sometimes caused by a problem durring the pregnancy, such as getting bumped into or drinking or something? and often even then it doesnt really result in insanity so much as mental handicaps, does it? isnt it more often than not emotional trauma? (im not a psychologist, i dont know, so please, if im wrong, explain how psychosis comes about)

[Vasu]

i was referring to the equation in the first paragraph you quoted.

Oh, okay. But that is the whole point of my argument. Complexity isn't a factor, so he can solve any equation. That implies that he cannot make an equation too complex for himself.

Being open, i guess, would be defined as quieting down everything around you, and just doing your best to feel him and what he wants you to do. then again, im not a priest or anything, so i dont know the church's doctrine.

Like I said, he should be able to communicate with us regardless of whether or not we are open.

A spirit is something that transcends the physical form. i think that perhaps what the other guy (i think it was Aiden who said it) said about it being made from pure energy may be accurate.

But something that is pure energy cannot be intelligent, and besides, "God made us in his image" didn't he?

And no matter what, the physical thing had to be created by something, and for something to not have to be created by something else, it has to defy the laws of science. The only thing i can really guess could do that would be something that transcends the physical form, therefore ending the chain needed in the big bang. Therefore, any previous or subsequent universes that may or may not have collapsed on themselves resulting in another big bang would be what Occam's Razor shaved off, in theory. i havent done much research.. if you're ever in an area where the priests are more open minded, you should debate this with them, really.

You have to prove that "non-physical" beings (whatever they are, you cannot prove that they exist) do not require a creator, and can defy the laws of physics. And also if you cannot claim that "non-physical" puts it out of the bounds of physics, because you have claimed he is some sort of energy, which can be dealt with in physical terms. And you are also using the argument from personal incredulity here i.e "I cannot think of any other way this happened, therefore it's probably this one."

as for birth defects, arent they sometimes caused by a problem durring the pregnancy, such as getting bumped into or drinking or something? and often even then it doesnt really result in insanity so much as mental handicaps, does it? isnt it more often than not emotional trauma? (im not a psychologist, i dont know, so please, if im wrong, explain how psychosis comes about)

And sometimes, it's also just a genetic defect. A malfunction in the chain of evolution.