Deity Existence

[Hraesvelg]

Just because there might be a few good ideas doesn't mean any of the supernatural hokum is valid.

I've always been amused that Christians even refer to those commandments. The new covenant established in the New Testament freed the Christians from following the old laws. Otherwise, you'd be avoiding shellfish and polyester.

[Jikanu]

The Ten Commandments are SLIGHTLY different than the rest of the laws... i see what you mean though.

You're kinda contradicting yourself, though. you just said it's possible that a deity exists, and yet you criticize christians for believing in one :/

there IS some evidence that points to the possibility to a deity, just nothing that fully proves it.

As for the lack of full testability, it kinda goes along with one of your previous posts :/

We're on a small mudball traveling around a backwater star using optical telescopes. Probing the far depths of the universe to a major degree of certainty is a bit out of our grasp.

Anyway, back to the hellhole that is school with me :/

[Hraesvelg]

I'm not criticizing anyone for saying that a deity might exist in some form. I'm criticizing anyone that says "There IS a deity and this is how he/she/it wants me/you/us to live/worship." Trust me, if any other sort of gnostic theist popped their head in, I'd wade into their particular belief system. It's absolutely preposterous.

[Vasu]

I've already told you that you can by all means use the Bible as a moral compass if you really want to. But you don't have to believe in a deity for that.


BUMP/EDIT: My bro told me something interesting about how no true free will exists, because humans and their reactions are just the sum of whatever influences them. Interesting, but I'm not sure how far I agree with it.


BUMP/EDIT 2:

1. Yes, you are correct. I didnt have an answer, and still dont, simply because i dont know how God operates. That's not something any living being can really answer, so it's kinda an unfair question :/

As for malevolence, one could assume that a being at such a higher level as to be able to create all that exists would be interested in things much higher than we, and therefore not have need for greed, hate, etc.

Exactly. So you don't know he wants you to go to Church every Sunday, and wants to bless you. There is no indication that he wants us to do anything, and the Bible is completely baseless for assuming most of the things in there, since humans can't possibly understand what god wants from us

And once again, to the sacrifice of Christ, perhaps there are supernatural rules that God has created for himself to follow. It doesnt limit his omnipotence and omnicience, because it would be more of a choice to limit his powers than anything else.

Yes, so then he has actively chosen the option that will lead to bloodshed. Malevolence?

Also, i think i've come up with something; Perhaps the absolute truth lies partially in different religions. I mean, there ARE similarities between each different religion; i believe a Taoist friend of mine told me that they believe in a god's son being sacrificed; (i dont know the accuracy of this story as i havent researched it very deeply yet); Many Native American tribes believed in a Great Spirit, therefore suggesting monothesim. Perhaps there isnt one specific religion with all the answers, but instead each holds a valuble peice of the puzzle (excluding religions created on greed, and hate, such as the manson family, of course)

Perhaps it doesn't?

2. It got circular because the arguments had no deffinite endpoint and would circle back to repeated topics. Also, you cant simplify both stances since we were debating details in them. it would go like this:

A. I hold Stance 1, 3, and 5
B. I hold stance 2, 4, and 6

A. X and Y disprove stance 2
B. But S and T maneuver around X and Y
A. But C and D Disprove X and Y
B. But stance 4 can reprove stance 2
A. But stance 4 is flawed because of such and such
B. Not if stance two is taken into account.
A. But stance two is flawed because of X and Y.

i couldnt really make a good model for the thread, but you get my basic point...

No, actually I don't. There's a fallacy in the middle of that since stance 2 and stance 4 are interdependent.

[Jikanu]

I've already told you that you can by all means use the Bible as a moral compass if you really want to. But you don't have to believe in a deity for that.


BUMP/EDIT: My bro told me something interesting about how no true free will exists, because humans and their reactions are just the sum of whatever influences them. Interesting, but I'm not sure how far I agree with it.


BUMP/EDIT 2:




Exactly. So you don't know he wants you to go to Church every Sunday, and wants to bless you. There is no indication that he wants us to do anything, and the Bible is completely baseless for assuming most of the things in there, since humans can't possibly understand what god wants from us



Yes, so then he has actively chosen the option that will lead to bloodshed. Malevolence?



Perhaps it doesn't?



No, actually I don't. There's a fallacy in the middle of that since stance 2 and stance 4 are interdependent.

i DO believe that it's a possibility that he's communicated with us and tried to give us peices to the puzzle in the past; perhaps he tried to reveal bits and peices of himself to each civilization, and he wants us to unite and put the peices together. i think we can know what he's told us through the Prophets, but... idk, i havent read the Bible too deeply yet, so it's hard for me to take a stance to debate with you on.

As for the bloodshed, if you consider him sacrificing himself so that all of us might be saved as "Malevolence" then you have a bit of a distorted take on it :/

and please, elaborate on the "Perhaps it doesnt?" Remark..

And i said it was a crappy model, but it gets the basic point across... we'll stumble across multiple stances which lead into each other which lead into past stances. i.e. the big bang, evolution, etc. Regardless, however, i'll come back to this thread.

[Hraesvelg]

As for the bloodshed, if you consider him sacrificing himself so that all of us might be saved as "Malevolence" then you have a bit of a distorted take on it :/

His take is distorted? Jesus, who is also God (thus his own father), "sacrificed" himself to appease...himself (in the form of God, who Jesus also is). That isn't distorted?

I put sacrifice in quotes because it wasn't much of a sacrifice. If a human dies in order to save someone else, that's a sacrifice. He has no knowledge of what comes after death, thus giving up whatever time he might have had to be sentient. Jesus would have known what was going to happen, being a former celestial being himself. He knew his existence would continue. It wasn't a sacrifice. It was a minor inconvenience to an omnipotent being.

[Jikanu]

His take is distorted? Jesus, who is also God (thus his own father), "sacrificed" himself to appease...himself (in the form of God, who Jesus also is). That isn't distorted?

I put sacrifice in quotes because it wasn't much of a sacrifice. If a human dies in order to save someone else, that's a sacrifice. He has no knowledge of what comes after death, thus giving up whatever time he might have had to be sentient. Jesus would have known what was going to happen, being a former celestial being himself. He knew his existence would continue. It wasn't a sacrifice. It was a minor inconvenience to an omnipotent being.

Have you seen in the movie or read in the bible what they did to him? it wasnt a simple death as it would be in these times. he didnt have the convenience of the electric chair or the lethal injection. He was beaten, whipped till his back was bleeding, he had a crown of thorns shoved deep into his skull, he was kicked around, forced to carry a cross alone half the way, and with the help of another (still doing his best to help carry it, though) the rest of the way. He then had nails driven through his hands and feet, and was hung up on a cross where he remained for a while. He then died, was placed in a tomb, and remained in limbo for 3 days. Only then did he get his afterlife.

It wasnt to appease himself, but to appease the laws of nature. I'm sure we know very very little about how sin works, since it's not a material thing; perhaps it required a holy sacrifice to be forgivable.

[Manzcar]

I think I may be coming around.

I am going to leave my faith and belief that there is a God and start to believe like the intelligent atheistic scientists believe.

That everything we see was created from nothing, by nothing, our lives mean nothing, the lives of those around us mean nothing, others views mean nothing, we are all just mistakes and have no meaning in our lives and therefor should do what ever we want no matter how foul those things may be.

In that the well being of others should mean nothing to me because in the end we are all going to die and turn to dust and will never be thought of again for the rest of eternity so why not just do those things or urges that are in our heart, mind, and soul.

Without a god or an afterlife all rape, robbery, murder, and evil thought is okay because the lives around us mean nothing, wait there is no such thing as evil because evil is just one persons view of an event. We are all just mistakes that happened and are our own pleasure ,no matter what that pleasure may be (rape murder molestation of your kids). So in essence Hitler wasn't evil he was just trying to live out his life the way the atheists say we should. Do what you want when you want because truth is relative to the individual and there is no good nor evil. And you can't judge him for that for who are you to judge someone else because life has no meaning anyway and we all have to die.

WOW my eyes are opened and now I'm depressed.

[Moririen]

wow that is wicked depressing.

My view is staying the same even after reading this whole thread and i'll stay a Christian.

[Jikanu]

^ That's more an argument against existentialism, an atheist philosophy than atheism itself, to be fair. However, Manz makes quite a good point in that.

I cant believe that there's no point to our existance. And besides, your atheist argument makes no sense. basically you're saying everyone in the bible just wanted to limit their pleasure and did so by claiming that there's a deity. That makes no evolutionary sense, as many species live to reproduce. There had to be something that drew them to that. A knowing of wrong and right. but without God, there IS no real wrong or right, is there? so therein lies the massive flaw in the atheistic theory.