Deity Existence

[Jikanu]

I've already told you that you can by all means use the Bible as a moral compass if you really want to. But you don't have to believe in a deity for that.


BUMP/EDIT: My bro told me something interesting about how no true free will exists, because humans and their reactions are just the sum of whatever influences them. Interesting, but I'm not sure how far I agree with it.


BUMP/EDIT 2:




Exactly. So you don't know he wants you to go to Church every Sunday, and wants to bless you. There is no indication that he wants us to do anything, and the Bible is completely baseless for assuming most of the things in there, since humans can't possibly understand what god wants from us



Yes, so then he has actively chosen the option that will lead to bloodshed. Malevolence?



Perhaps it doesn't?



No, actually I don't. There's a fallacy in the middle of that since stance 2 and stance 4 are interdependent.

i DO believe that it's a possibility that he's communicated with us and tried to give us peices to the puzzle in the past; perhaps he tried to reveal bits and peices of himself to each civilization, and he wants us to unite and put the peices together. i think we can know what he's told us through the Prophets, but... idk, i havent read the Bible too deeply yet, so it's hard for me to take a stance to debate with you on.

As for the bloodshed, if you consider him sacrificing himself so that all of us might be saved as "Malevolence" then you have a bit of a distorted take on it :/

and please, elaborate on the "Perhaps it doesnt?" Remark..

And i said it was a crappy model, but it gets the basic point across... we'll stumble across multiple stances which lead into each other which lead into past stances. i.e. the big bang, evolution, etc. Regardless, however, i'll come back to this thread.

[Hraesvelg]

As for the bloodshed, if you consider him sacrificing himself so that all of us might be saved as "Malevolence" then you have a bit of a distorted take on it :/

His take is distorted? Jesus, who is also God (thus his own father), "sacrificed" himself to appease...himself (in the form of God, who Jesus also is). That isn't distorted?

I put sacrifice in quotes because it wasn't much of a sacrifice. If a human dies in order to save someone else, that's a sacrifice. He has no knowledge of what comes after death, thus giving up whatever time he might have had to be sentient. Jesus would have known what was going to happen, being a former celestial being himself. He knew his existence would continue. It wasn't a sacrifice. It was a minor inconvenience to an omnipotent being.

[Jikanu]

His take is distorted? Jesus, who is also God (thus his own father), "sacrificed" himself to appease...himself (in the form of God, who Jesus also is). That isn't distorted?

I put sacrifice in quotes because it wasn't much of a sacrifice. If a human dies in order to save someone else, that's a sacrifice. He has no knowledge of what comes after death, thus giving up whatever time he might have had to be sentient. Jesus would have known what was going to happen, being a former celestial being himself. He knew his existence would continue. It wasn't a sacrifice. It was a minor inconvenience to an omnipotent being.

Have you seen in the movie or read in the bible what they did to him? it wasnt a simple death as it would be in these times. he didnt have the convenience of the electric chair or the lethal injection. He was beaten, whipped till his back was bleeding, he had a crown of thorns shoved deep into his skull, he was kicked around, forced to carry a cross alone half the way, and with the help of another (still doing his best to help carry it, though) the rest of the way. He then had nails driven through his hands and feet, and was hung up on a cross where he remained for a while. He then died, was placed in a tomb, and remained in limbo for 3 days. Only then did he get his afterlife.

It wasnt to appease himself, but to appease the laws of nature. I'm sure we know very very little about how sin works, since it's not a material thing; perhaps it required a holy sacrifice to be forgivable.

[Manzcar]

I think I may be coming around.

I am going to leave my faith and belief that there is a God and start to believe like the intelligent atheistic scientists believe.

That everything we see was created from nothing, by nothing, our lives mean nothing, the lives of those around us mean nothing, others views mean nothing, we are all just mistakes and have no meaning in our lives and therefor should do what ever we want no matter how foul those things may be.

In that the well being of others should mean nothing to me because in the end we are all going to die and turn to dust and will never be thought of again for the rest of eternity so why not just do those things or urges that are in our heart, mind, and soul.

Without a god or an afterlife all rape, robbery, murder, and evil thought is okay because the lives around us mean nothing, wait there is no such thing as evil because evil is just one persons view of an event. We are all just mistakes that happened and are our own pleasure ,no matter what that pleasure may be (rape murder molestation of your kids). So in essence Hitler wasn't evil he was just trying to live out his life the way the atheists say we should. Do what you want when you want because truth is relative to the individual and there is no good nor evil. And you can't judge him for that for who are you to judge someone else because life has no meaning anyway and we all have to die.

WOW my eyes are opened and now I'm depressed.

[Moririen]

wow that is wicked depressing.

My view is staying the same even after reading this whole thread and i'll stay a Christian.

[Jikanu]

^ That's more an argument against existentialism, an atheist philosophy than atheism itself, to be fair. However, Manz makes quite a good point in that.

I cant believe that there's no point to our existance. And besides, your atheist argument makes no sense. basically you're saying everyone in the bible just wanted to limit their pleasure and did so by claiming that there's a deity. That makes no evolutionary sense, as many species live to reproduce. There had to be something that drew them to that. A knowing of wrong and right. but without God, there IS no real wrong or right, is there? so therein lies the massive flaw in the atheistic theory.

[Vasu]

I think I may be coming around.

I am going to leave my faith and belief that there is a God and start to believe like the intelligent atheistic scientists believe.

That everything we see was created from nothing, by nothing, our lives mean nothing, the lives of those around us mean nothing, others views mean nothing, we are all just mistakes and have no meaning in our lives and therefor should do what ever we want no matter how foul those things may be.

We are not mistakes. We are products of chance. I live to make myself happy. And because I have some common sense, I realise I cannot be happy, if others around me torment me. They won't be happy if I torment them either. So it is like a mutual deal to leave each other happy, and not do harm to them. It's not, "If I do this I will burn."

In that the well being of others should mean nothing to me because in the end we are all going to die and turn to dust and will never be thought of again for the rest of eternity so why not just do those things or urges that are in our heart, mind, and soul.

Whether the well-being of others means anything to you is your own personal decision. I respect others because I want to be respected. I care for others because I want to be cared for. Not because I live in fear of an angry bearded old man smiting me.

Without a god or an afterlife all rape, robbery, murder, and evil thought is okay because the lives around us mean nothing, wait there is no such thing as evil because evil is just one persons view of an event. We are all just mistakes that happened and are our own pleasure ,no matter what that pleasure may be (rape murder molestation of your kids). So in essence Hitler wasn't evil he was just trying to live out his life the way the atheists say we should. Do what you want when you want because truth is relative to the individual and there is no good nor evil. And you can't judge him for that for who are you to judge someone else because life has no meaning anyway and we all have to die.

WOW my eyes are opened and now I'm depressed.

You can STFU right there. I resent the accusation that I am a moral-less maniac who doesn't care for life. I am simply able to realise that even though there is no inherent meaning or end point to life, I am here, and I may as well make the experience happy for myself, while not hurting the experience of others. That fact that you are blind to that and need fear driving you on is not my problem.

^ That's more an argument against existentialism, an atheist philosophy than atheism itself, to be fair. However, Manz makes quite a good point in that.

I cant believe that there's no point to our existance. And besides, your atheist argument makes no sense. basically you're saying everyone in the bible just wanted to limit their pleasure and did so by claiming that there's a deity. That makes no evolutionary sense, as many species live to reproduce. There had to be something that drew them to that. A knowing of wrong and right. but without God, there IS no real wrong or right, is there? so therein lies the massive flaw in the atheistic theory.

So being an atheist makes no sense because it is incompatible with morality? That's a ridiculous argument. And atheism is NOT incompatible with morality. Just because there is no absolute judge of right and wrong, doesn't mean that morality cannot exist. When two people agree that both their lives would be a lot better off if they didn't try to kill each other, they can do so without a deity threatening to burn them for eternity if they did try.


And this argument as a whole is not sound. Without God, there can be no morality, and no right and wrong. Therefore God exists, and I will not consider the possibility that there is no real meaning to life.

[Jikanu]

But without morality, we wouldnt object to half the things we do. You forget that without some kind of feeling of what's right and whats wrong, we wouldnt neccesarilly feel that certain things were wrong. for example, you dont hear about animals raping each other, as they dont really care. In humans, there's something different, where we can tell that having sex with someone you dont know or care about is wrong. This sense of morality must be given to us by something that recognizes us as different from animals, nor would it be evolutionary as it would go against everything in darwinism (i.e. a lack of reproductional chances rather than an increase). Would this be a logical conclusion?

And im not suggesting that atheists are evil moral-less freaks, as may have been implied in manz's post; im just saying that we as a species must've gotten these morals that seperate us from animals from some place.

[Ivramire]

But without morality, we wouldnt object to half the things we do. You forget that without some kind of feeling of what's right and whats wrong, we wouldnt neccesarilly feel that certain things were wrong. for example, you dont hear about animals raping each other, as they dont really care. In humans, there's something different, where we can tell that having sex with someone you dont know or care about is wrong. This sense of morality must be given to us by something that recognizes us as different from animals, nor would it be evolutionary as it would go against everything in darwinism (i.e. a lack of reproductional chances rather than an increase). Would this be a logical conclusion?

And im not suggesting that atheists are evil moral-less freaks, as may have been implied in manz's post; im just saying that we as a species must've gotten these morals that seperate us from animals from some place.

Not necessarily.


Morals can be seen as a product of society and the way social-structures work. We know intuitively and are taught what will and won't fly. Non-conforming = ostracization from greater community + conditioned response of shame + penalties = death.


It actually fits in pretty well with ''darwinism'' and how people might have developed.

[Hraesvelg]

In humans, there's something different, where we can tell that having sex with someone you dont know or care about is wrong.

Speak for yourself. Maybe you have a prudish sense of sex, but not all of us do. I've had sex with plenty of people I didn't care about and it wasn't "wrong". We were consenting adults engaging in a recreational activity.