Deity Existence

[Jikanu]

The same could be said for you, in all truth. i address one of your points, then you respond with a counterpoint, then i address that, and you pull out the first point again.

[Vasu]

He's too powerful NOT to lift the rock. that's what my point was.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but doesn't it seem as if you're just saying that he can lift it?

And yes, whenever you bring humans into play, there will be corruption.

And unfortunately, it's humans who practice religion, and humans who form government.

And i see no contradiction between omniciency and omnipitance. Perhaps you should ask him yourself if you end up in heaven?

I will repeat this as simply as I can. Sorry if that bothers you.

Assumption 1: God knows everything.

Assumption 2: God can do anything.

Deduction 1: God knows what he is going to do in the future, from among the numerous possibilities available to him, for sure, That means he knows that he is definitely going to pick option number 5 out of some 'x' or infinity.

Deduction 2: God can change the decision to pick option 5 to pick option 7.


Inference 1: Now, a contradiction appears before us. God knows for sure that he is going to pick option 5, but he changes it to option 7. Which means that he does not know everything.

Inference 2: Because god knows for sure that he is going to pick option 5, he cannot change his decision, and decide to pick option 7. Which means he can't do everything.

and here in america, there ARE secular republicans too, citing their own religion-less moral values, so it's not all because of religion

Most moral codes are derived from what religion tell us. Most probably even mine. I find nothing wrong with this. But some tenets of religion are wrong and racist. These are not changed, This is what bothers me.

[Jikanu]

But you're leaving out one last assumption:

3. God is all knowing

Deduction: God will never make an incorrect decision.

Conclusion: God will never NEED to change his decision.

[Vasu]

But you're leaving out one last assumption:

3. God is all knowing

Deduction: God will never make an incorrect decision.

Conclusion: God will never NEED to change his decision.

And once again, you miss the point (Don't take this in a bad way, I might be the one missing yours). I do not care if he does not "need" to change the decision. Can he? Yes, you said. So if he can, he is not omniscient.

[Jikanu]

if he WAS going to, he would see it ahead of time. Is this not an accurate assumption?

And as a defence on why not to just change his plan at that time, he might feel it neccesary to stick with one for a certain amount of time.

[Vasu]

Yes, it is. But then could he decide again not to?

[Jikanu]

Yes, but it's still possible that he would foresee changing his mind yet again

[Vasu]

And could he change that decision? ad infinitum

Therefore they are incompatible.

[Jikanu]

Why, exactly? just because he can change whatever decisions he made at any point and know when he's going to change it doesnt make it an infinite loop, and doesnt make them incompatible. Explain, please.

And im not a theologist, btw, and my words shouldnt be taken as the doctrine of the church; im just trying to use common sense. You should contact a priest or theologist with these questions, really.

[Vasu]

I am saying this:

God foresaw picking option A.

He did not foresee changing to option B, because that wasn't going to happen.

Now, can he change that decision, and pick option B?



Unfortunately, all the priests here are mindless theists, and do not think anything beyond "Jesus is our saviour."


EDIT: Be back tomorrow.