Deity Existence

[Ralath]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent; Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent; Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?; Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? --Epicurus

Also, the problem of the Bible is that, well, it's pretty inconsistent as far as content goes. And not just between... say... the "Bible", Koran, and Torah but between different versions of the Bible itself (ie. King James vs. any other), and within the Bible itself. If the Bible is the word of God, how there be so many different versions of the same story running around. And if we attribute this error in consistency to human error, what validates the Bible as the true word of God and not the word of "human."

Edit: Clearly, you guys post too fast for me.

[Jikanu]

Ralath, you left out one option there; What if he's willing and able to, but his will for us to do it ourself and to learn and choose to be good outweighs it?

if you're handed things on a silver platter, how are you going to learn what to do and what not to do? perhaps he wants humankind as a whole to learn from its mistakes.

[Manzcar]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent; Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent; Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?; Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? --Epicurus

Also, the problem of the Bible is that, well, it's pretty inconsistent as far as content goes. And not just between... say... the "Bible", Koran, and Torah but between different versions of the Bible itself (ie. King James vs. any other), and within the Bible itself. If the Bible is the word of God, how there be so many different versions of the same story running around. And if we attribute this error in consistency to human error, what validates the Bible as the true word of God and not the word of "human."

Edit: Clearly, you guys post too fast for me.

If a parent tells a child the way they should go and they disregard their advice and do things that cause themselves harm. Who's fault is it.

Ralath PM me your list of inconsistencies I would like to see them. Thanks.

[Vasu]

Why must you choose one or the other? Who's to say that they cant coexist in an imensely strange way? who's to say that he cant know all the possible tracks, and know what he's going to choose, but all at the same time have the power to pull the lever to switch the tracks at the exact same time? If you were given a gun and asked if you would kill your best friend, you would have the power to kill him, but you would know you wouldnt.

Who's to say that eggs aren't the same thing as bacon? Who's to say that we aren't all bananas?

I shall explain this again. My apologies to all the feminists out there, but I shall refer to god as "he."


God knows everything, and can do anything. Cool?

Therefore god knows, from all the possibilities he has available to him, what he is going to do in the future, for sure.

Now, since god can do anything, can he change that decision that he took?

If yes, he does not know everything because he did not foresee this change.

If no, he cannot do everything because he cannot change this decision of his.


And finally, can God make a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it?

And, just as life is passed from ancestor to descendant, so is the original sin that stained mankind.

And, because my dad is a murderer, so am I.

and i was simply saying that they dont really have the capacity to understand electronics and stuff like that, just as we might have the capacity to understand him.

But we can most certainly understand logic. Tell me, are you saying that they will happen in a way we cannot understand? Cop out.

[Senyx The Soulless one]

Who's to say that eggs aren't the same thing as bacon? Who's to say that we aren't all bananas?

God says that we are Man, and we stand seperate from the animals, and rule over them.

I shall explain this again. My apologies to all the feminists out there, but I shall refer to god as "he."

God said that he created Adam in the image of Himself.

[Ralath]

Ralath, you left out one option there; What if he's willing and able to, but his will for us to do it ourself and to learn and choose to be good outweighs it?

if you're handed things on a silver platter, how are you going to learn what to do and what not to do? perhaps he wants humankind as a whole to learn from its mistakes.

Yes, but if he is omnipotent, he could find an alternative way and have a way for us to do those things. You make it sound like we're his playthings.

If a parent tells a child the way they should go and they disregard their advice and do things that cause themselves harm. Who's fault is it.

If by child, you mean Adam and Eve... then.... I honestly have no idea how to respond to that. Nor really how it relates to what I've posted. But if the parent knew beforehand (being omniscient and all) that the child was going to disregard his advice... and doesn't do anything to stop him... isn't that bad parenting? I think this is kind of a bad analogy. But notwithstanding, there's something that clashes with this idea that God would tell man to do one thing, knowing well that man is clearly not going to to listen...

Ralath PM me your list of inconsistencies I would like to see them. Thanks.

Feel free to do any search on the web for them. They're fairly common (and I'm not talking about sources where there's a clearly anti-religion slant or even Wikipedia. Respectable sources ie. universities)

[Jikanu]

...that didnt really address anything i said, but i'll repeat myself.

He has the power, but knows he wont use it. he could, but knows he wont.

If i gave you a detonator, you know you wouldnt use it, but you have the power to. Correct?

And as for the stone thing, he would have to power himself down temporarily, i guess.

And it's of no fault of yours, and no flaw in your character; The FIRST sin stained humanity. that's all.

He might be able to trancend logic, but i condcede that it was an innaccurate comparison. all apologies.

Yes, but if he is omnipotent, he could find an alternative way and have a way for us to do those things. You make it sound like we're his playthings.



If by child, you mean Adam and Eve... then.... I honestly have no idea how to respond to that. Nor really how it relates to what I've posted. But if the parent knew beforehand (being omniscient and all) that the child was going to disregard his advice... and doesn't do anything to stop him... isn't that bad parenting? I think this is kind of a bad analogy. But notwithstanding, there's something that clashes with this idea that God would tell man to do one thing, knowing well that man is clearly not going to to listen...



Feel free to do any search on the web for them. They're fairly common (and I'm not talking about sources where there's a clearly anti-religion slant or even Wikipedia. Respectable sources ie. universities)

You're looking at him in an incorrect way.

You're looking at him as if he decides to control our lives; but you're leaving out one key decision that he made while making us:

He gave us free will. When you choose to do wrong, is God at fault? or is it you? he gave us freedom. He understands the value of choice. He leaves it to us to learn the right choices and the wrong ones.

And no, it's not bad parenting. It's not good if you're forced into it. There is no good choice without a wrong one.

[Vasu]

...that didnt really address anything i said, but i'll repeat myself.

He has the power, but knows he wont use it. he could, but knows he wont.

If i gave you a detonator, you know you wouldnt use it, but you have the power to. Correct?

You are assuming I am not suicidal. But that is quibbling, and I will accept the assumption.

Now the point is how "could" he? It doesn't matter if he won't and never will. The point is "can" he or "could" he?

And as for the stone thing, he would have to power himself down temporarily, i guess.

Do explain.

And it's of no fault of yours, and no flaw in your character; The FIRST sin stained humanity. that's all.

So there is absolutely no difference between me and Adam at the moment when I am born. Right?

[Manzcar]

I think my entire point is getting lost again as feared.

No one can prove that God does not exists. I state that the Bible shows proof of God's existence.

Why does it matter if I believe. If you really believe that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs what use is this thread.

I contend that this thread was not meant for a discussion, but to state that there is no God and if you dare say there is then you have to give proof beyond a shadow of a doubt.

But no one has to prove that God does not exist.

[Jikanu]

You are assuming I am not suicidal. But that is quibbling, and I will accept the assumption.

Now the point is how "could" he? It doesn't matter if he won't and never will. The point is "can" he or "could" he?




Do explain.




So there is absolutely no difference between me and Adam at the moment when I am born. Right?

i'll restate what i said earlier: Original sin is seperate from personal sin. once again:

"Roman Catholic teaching regards original sin as the general condition of sinfulness (lack of holiness) into which human beings are born, distinct from the actual sins that a person commits. It explicitly states that original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants.[7]" -Wikipedia.

As for the stone, i guess it would be impossible since nothing can overpower God, not even his own creation.

And yes, he could, but his decisions are always right the first time since he's all knowing and all wise, therefore his first decision is right.