Apathy.

[Ivramire]

Yes, the world will never change unless we all do something, but apparently there are a lot of apathetic people out there because the world isn't changing into something like Jikanu's vision, is it? Too many people have peace right now. Unless something big happens, something that can motivate everyone to do something, I doubt the world can become fair, much less utopian. And this big thing has to be something disastrous.

Again, I think destruction before creation. It sounds kind of cruel, but I really think that while we may get far in the road with peace, we'll never really get there without something big, something that'll make us learn our lesson. It doesn't matter how hard you try with peace, there is going to be some people that just aren't committed because they've already got what they need. It takes a disaster to bring everyone to their senses.

If you don't get what I'm saying, look at global warming. Everybody knows about it, but there are few people who have stopped using cars because they want to stop it. The only way we'll realise how bad it is is when something awesome (the original def) happens. That's just the way humans are. We never understand what we had before it's gone.

Sometimes peace isn't the best way to stop violence.
Might be rough for the generation that goes through it, but the later generations will love them.

.

A good example to use is the one of Global Warming, and more specifically for the point I'm going to use, the previously high gas-prices. Unfortunate fact of life; a lot of people won't give a damn about something unless it affects them personally in some way.


Millions of lives affected by the actions of a few highly-industrialized countries? Polar Ice-caps melting? Why should I care? People do start noticing however when they have to pay some part of the price. That came home for a lot of people when oil jumped to it's highest prices for as long as they could remember, as well as every single time they had to fill-up their 15/MPG cars. It hit them right where it hurts, not in the head, not in the heart, but in the wallet.


Undoubtedly, there are those people who were and are moved by more unselfish motivations, who use periods of adversity to jump-start change and foster awareness. Those people however are a bit harder to find.


Caring enough about things to invest time and effort into them demands a lot from the people it takes from. Some people just don't have that much to give. It's good to aspire to something greater, but without actual action and something more than words, noone's not actually going to change anything.

[Jikanu]

Because we're human. We live to be different. If we didn't, we'd still be in Stone age.
Why is it so hard for you to grasp that?

And Jikanu, you are looking for utopia. The world is never going to be absolutely fair, absolutely sane, face it. To make it that, you will have to put everybody under the same religion, same routine, same thoughts, same everything. Something like 1948. -all hail BB!-

I dont want SAMENESS. im talking about somewhere where we ARE different, but we RESPECT those differences. there's plenty of people who i've debated with in another forum on religion who have radically different view points on life than me; however, we still get along amiably outside of that forum. why couldnt that apply to the israli and the palestinians, or the middle east and the western world? *sigh* i suppose i just dont understand humans. Oh well. x.x

if it came off as me believing that sameness is the way to go, im sorry. that is certainly not the belief i hold.

.

A good example to use is the one of Global Warming, and more specifically for the point I'm going to use, the previously high gas-prices. Unfortunate fact of life; a lot of people won't give a damn about something unless it affects them personally in some way.


Millions of lives affected by the actions of a few highly-industrialized countries? Polar Ice-caps melting? Why should I care? People do start noticing however when they have to pay some part of the price. That came home for a lot of people when oil jumped to it's highest prices for as long as they could remember, as well as every single time they had to fill-up their 15/MPG cars. It hit them right where it hurts, not in the head, not in the heart, but in the wallet.


Undoubtedly, there are those people who were and are moved by more unselfish motivations, who use periods of adversity to jump-start change and foster awareness. Those people however are a bit harder to find.


Caring enough about things to invest time and effort into them demands a lot from the people it takes from. Some people just don't have that much to give. It's good to aspire to something greater, but without actual action and something more than words, noone's not actually going to change anything.

*Sigh* you bring up a good point, especially in that last paragraph. i suppose that's simply the depressing fact of life. People are generally selfish beings, i suppose... Hopefully the next generation will be a bit different from the current one... It more likely than not wont, but Hope, no matter how false, is better than the destruction which follows hopelessness.

However, even small things help. it doesnt require a huge amount of time and billions of dollars. for example, there's a website known as "Kiva.org" where you can give small loans to people in developing countries that they pay off over time. that's a small and easy way to make a difference, you know? it's something you can afford, and you're one step closer to solving world hunger.

But anyway, back on topic, i suppose im just an idealist. i dont know if that's a gift or a curse x.x

[Dynamics]

Go use that idealism then. It's a gift if you use it, it's a curse if you don't. I think the only problem with idealism is that it's so far from reality. People aren't capable of taking those kinds of leaps, and radical idealists can't understand that. We've all got our own ideals, and we reach out for them differently.

Frankly I feel I'm doing my part for society by just functioning in it. If I don't slip through the cracks and begin dysfunctioning then I'm alright. For a lot of people that's harder than it sounds.

As for you, clearly you're itching to do something much more - I say go for it and stop wasting yourself by talking about it here. I'm sure there's volunteer work somewhere nearby that'll get you a little more involved in your community and the world around you.

[Yosei]

Yeah, but start small. I think world peace is a little too big. But I guess dare to dream big.

[Hraesvelg]

Just keep in mind most of your heroes were assassinated.

[Jikanu]

Sadly, yes. But one of them was assasinated, not for his dreams of peace, but because of an insane person.

I really wonder how the world would be now if they'd lived. Lennon, and King, and Kennedy, and Lincoln, and all those for peace and equality... i wonder if the world would be much different...

[Vasu]

I don't think so. The world was always violent and horrible, and still is in many ways. Actually, I dare say the world has been moving towards your vision in recent years. People are a hell lot more understanding now than in the days of slavery, apartheid, and unequal womens' rights. The world isn't going to the gutter suddenly. It's actually clawing it's way out. All it needs is time.

[Enraya]

I dont want SAMENESS. im talking about somewhere where we ARE different, but we RESPECT those differences. there's plenty of people who i've debated with in another forum on religion who have radically different view points on life than me; however, we still get along amiably outside of that forum. why couldnt that apply to the israli and the palestinians, or the middle east and the western world? *sigh* i suppose i just dont understand humans. Oh well. x.x

if it came off as me believing that sameness is the way to go, im sorry. that is certainly not the belief i hold.

I don't think I made myself clear.
I understand your dream of the ultimate world: a world where everybody can just accept everyone for who they are, and get along. People don't have to be under pressure every day, worrying because they're gay, or because they're of a different religion, or because they're teased at a school for being overweight.

But I don't think you have envisioned how to get there. You want everyone to respect everybody; but HOW? Do you expect to waltz in, say "let's all get along guys!" and have everybody follow you? Life is never going to be that simple. The people you have talked to on the forums are probably part of the more open-minded of the community (why else would they go on a forum, for which the main purpose is to share ideas and interact?). Not everybody is this way. Like you said in your post, why can't Palestinians and Israeli just get along? Because, for the extremists of these, it is practically religion to hate each other. They are supposed to stop that? They're supposed to give up one of the most important things in their life just because some guy says so?

See, people are too different. And contrasting ideas are just not going to get along. Perhaps the world could somehow accept one another for who they are and just put aside the issues that they have conflicts with, but that's a short term solution. Sooner or later, those issues are going to come back and haunt them. There is NEVER going to be absolute respect in the world, not with all our different personalities. There is always going to be SOMEONE who wants it THEIR way. Why? Because, as you stated, we are selfish creatures.

So even if you say you don't want sameness, in reality, you do. We're never all going to get along if we're so different; and we're definitely not going to accept other people with drastically different views. It's like telling Hitler that he should accept non-Aryans/Germans. Is he gonna do that? ....noooo, I don't think so.

I don't think your idea is wrong by any means; of course not! Just that the road to your ideal world isn't going to be that easy... and it's certainly not going to be violence-free.

[Hessah]

One question, do you ever get annoyed at anyone Jik?

[Jikanu]

One question, do you ever get annoyed at anyone Jik?

Yes, very much so. Why?

I don't think I made myself clear.
I understand your dream of the ultimate world: a world where everybody can just accept everyone for who they are, and get along. People don't have to be under pressure every day, worrying because they're gay, or because they're of a different religion, or because they're teased at a school for being overweight.

But I don't think you have envisioned how to get there. You want everyone to respect everybody; but HOW? Do you expect to waltz in, say "let's all get along guys!" and have everybody follow you? Life is never going to be that simple. The people you have talked to on the forums are probably part of the more open-minded of the community (why else would they go on a forum, for which the main purpose is to share ideas and interact?). Not everybody is this way. Like you said in your post, why can't Palestinians and Israeli just get along? Because, for the extremists of these, it is practically religion to hate each other. They are supposed to stop that? They're supposed to give up one of the most important things in their life just because some guy says so?

See, people are too different. And contrasting ideas are just not going to get along. Perhaps the world could somehow accept one another for who they are and just put aside the issues that they have conflicts with, but that's a short term solution. Sooner or later, those issues are going to come back and haunt them. There is NEVER going to be absolute respect in the world, not with all our different personalities. There is always going to be SOMEONE who wants it THEIR way. Why? Because, as you stated, we are selfish creatures.

So even if you say you don't want sameness, in reality, you do. We're never all going to get along if we're so different; and we're definitely not going to accept other people with drastically different views. It's like telling Hitler that he should accept non-Aryans/Germans. Is he gonna do that? ....noooo, I don't think so.

I don't think your idea is wrong by any means; of course not! Just that the road to your ideal world isn't going to be that easy... and it's certainly not going to be violence-free.

*Sigh* if it must be as you say it must, i would truly rather have the world we live in now than a world of absolute sameness, honestly. All the instability is worth it for individuality and emotion and feeling. If it comes down to this, or the societies portrayed in Brave New World, and the Giver, i'd rather be here.

And i DO understand simple conflicts, there will always be bullying and jerkishness in the world as long as humans are human. I just wonder if we can seriously tone it down a little; maybe help the 3rd world countries out of poverty, negotiate a peace between isreal and palestine, and all that. i know the world will never be truly completely peaceful, seeing as humans ARE, as you said, selfish, violent creatures, but i wonder if it's possible to tone down the needless genocide. Perhaps start small and go for that goal before complete world acceptance.

I don't think so. The world was always violent and horrible, and still is in many ways. Actually, I dare say the world has been moving towards your vision in recent years. People are a hell lot more understanding now than in the days of slavery, apartheid, and unequal womens' rights. The world isn't going to the gutter suddenly. It's actually clawing it's way out. All it needs is time.

Perhaps you're right, though it still seems to be falling in other categories... Nuclear Bombs, and ever increasingly effective weapons, for example :/