Deity Existence

[Vasu]

Hm. well, i assure you, that's not how it's supposed to be. They're supposed to back up their beliefs. Trust me, just because they're blind sheep doesnt mean all christians are.

And im saying he could forsee changing to option b in the future, but stick with option a right now, because it's the better choice till a certain time.

Yeah, I know, it's just that Christianity doesn't get the coverage and thought out belief it usually does in Europe or America.

It's like both of us banging our heads against brick walls, innit?

I guess we are just not able to understand each other's points here, so I shall drop it.

@ Vasu

First of all to go back to your proving a negative. I think that is what you called it, some things are coming a little quick and I am trying to do my job at the same time, so if I am wrong or am using the wrong reference I am sorry. You stated that you saying that you had fairies in your backyard was the same as the Bible. Your first hand account was the same as the one I brought up Moses leading the Jewish people out of Egypt. But your logic is most flawed. I did not say that it was one first hand account for Moses but an entire race of people who saw and agreed to what was written by Moses. So once you get a million people to confirm and swear that they also saw these fairies your statement is logically weak in comparison and in scientific words would be thrown out.

So it's numbers that will convince you? Well then in the Bhagavath Geetha, a million people fighting a war were convinced that they saw a four headed god appear in the sky after a guy shot an arrow at the sky after uttering a few Mantras. So why aren't you a Hindu? Hell, even the FSM has millions of followers around the world who are convinced that the world was created 500 (yes, five hundred) years ago by his Noodly Appendage. So why aren't you a pastafarian?


EVERY religious book claims to have millions of witnesses to a divine event. That does NOT make them true.

Besides, the Bible has first hand accounts of many people at the same time over thousands of years. It isn’t a one time thing for one person but Thousands of years and millions of people. Some would say scientifically proves it right there. It wasn’t just a one time event. So once again if after thousands of years and millions of first hand accounts to the fairies in your backyard then I will believe with out a shadow of a doubt.

So it's length of time that will convince you? Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world, and is yet practised by the majority of Indians. So why aren't you a Hindu? Do you believe in Hinduism without a shadow of doubt?

Or is proving a negative saying that you can’t prove God doesn’t exist or it is impossible to prove He doesn’t exist so therefore you don’t have to prove it. Seems like a cop out to me. Because once they thought the world was flat, no proof for or against it. They proved it was round so didn’t they prove the negative. Or am I missing your point all together. Cause it looks like they proved the negative.

They proved it was round, so they proved the positive. Proving the world was not flat was a by-product of proving that the world was round. "The world is round." That is a positive proven statement. "Therefore the world cannot be flat." That is the logically drawn conclusion.

To your omnipotent and omniscient argument, I tried to look up your example but was unable to find it. I think it had something to do with creating a rock so heavy it couldn’t be lifted. Which is a cute use of words but in and of itself is illogical with the definitions of the words. The words mean all knowing and all powerful, and have nothing to do with physical strength when describing God. God is spiritual and is all knowing and all powerful spiritual being. It doesn’t mean he can lift the universe with one hand tied behind his back. It means he has all knowledge and all power. Therefore once again your question is illogical with respect to the discussion of God. And scientifically should be thrown out.

Okay, I can frame that question in any way you want. Can god write a book so big that even he cannot remember what is in it?

As far as all knowing goes he makes his decisions and knows the outcome of those decisions so you are wondering why would he had made man knowing that they would sin and be thrown out of the Garden of Eden. But what you miss is he knew that would happen and made sure that there was a way to Him through Jesus Christ. Therefore he knew what actions man would make and He knew He had to do something to save them, which He did.

Well, I wasn't asking this, but it is an interesting point. And he also knew that he did not have to sacrifice his son. He could just say hey presto, like I already said.

To your epic rant on beliefs, once again you have taken something out of its context and moved it to another realm. The discussion has been on beliefs on whether a God exists or not. The beliefs stated were for this topic and this topic only on whether God exists. You have once again shown that you are not interested in hearing but only in spouting your beliefs. No one has ever stated that Hitler’s beliefs should be okay or allowed. Personal beliefs of Hitler and whether You agree with them or not was not the discussion. Why do you bring them up.

You asked me if everybody was entitled to their beliefs. I asked you whether Hitler was entitled to his. I heard, and I replied.

Is this thread really about people sharing their reasons why they believe in God. Well it looks like every time someone gives a reason you show how their reason is flawed and wrong. Doesn’t look like a discussion to me looks like a debate between believers in God and those who do not believe.

Which is exactly what it is. I asked for a reason for your beliefs. You stated them, and I showed why they are flawed (sorry if I am generalising here). You should not find any problem with this being a debate unless you are incapable of defending your beliefs, and I am sure that you are not.

Why do I believe in God? I have a personal relationship with God. I have felt his presence, seen Him work, and viewed His answering my prayers. I have a Bible that shows proof of His existence. The Bible also gives me instructions on how to live, gives me comfort in my trials and tribulations, and give me hope for the future. These are my reasons for believing. And they don’t have to convince you of anything. You have to decide for yourself. I believe your decision is most evident.

What exactly do you mean by "felt his presence"? How have you "viewed him answering your prayers"? If the Bible gives you all those things, I have no problem with you using it as a moral code, as I have already said. I have my own moral code. Everyone has theirs, everyone is entitled to theirs, and everyone needs theirs, as long as it does not hurt others.

What about it being 50% metaphore, 50% literal? it's possible that some is to be taken literally and some figuratively, correct?

Right, absolutely right. In fact, it's imperative that some or even most parts of it be taken figuratively. There are many Christians who hate Homosexuals for the simple reason that the Bible says to kill them.

But unfortunately, this is where the cop outs begin. Is there a part of the Bible that's wrong/impossible/contradictory? Simple! Throw it in the "figurative" bin.

[Jikanu]

Well, for the anti-gay rights, they dont hate gays for being gay, they dislike their lifestyle because its focusing on pleasure of sex over procreation. im not anti-gay rights; i feel like it's any other religion. as long as it doesnt hurt me, im fine with it.

And Manz does have a point: how did moses get the isrealites out of egypt if not by the events in the Bible? i mean, it's historical fact that they got out of there; how else could they have gotten out of one of the biggest national superpowers of the time?

[Vasu]

Well, for the anti-gay rights, they dont hate gays for being gay, they dislike their lifestyle because its focusing on pleasure of sex over procreation. im not anti-gay rights; i feel like it's any other religion. as long as it doesnt hurt me, im fine with it.

And Manz does have a point: how did moses get the isrealites out of egypt if not by the events in the Bible? i mean, it's historical fact that they got out of there; how else could they have gotten out of one of the biggest national superpowers of the time?

And what's wrong with focussing on pleasure of sex over procreation?



Okay, I'm sure both of you know the story of the exodus, so let me bring up a few points here.

• Moses saw a burning bush and god talked to him from it.
  
  
• Then Moses went to the Pharaoh and told him to release the Jews.
  
  
• Moses asked a second time. Pharaoh refuses. God turns all the waters into blood.
  
  
• Moses askes a third time. Pharaoh refuses. A plague of locusts swarms over the land affecting everyone, and not just the Pharaoh.
  
  
• One last refusal. God kills not only Pharoah's first born son, but the first born son of EACH and EVERY Egyptian regardless of whether they had a hand in the refusal. A very sensible, just and merciful god, but that is beside the point. Also god quite literally robs the Egyptians of their belongings and gives it away to the Israelites. Why the discrimination?
  
  
• Then Pharaoh sends his army when the Israelites reach the see. Moses does magic, and the sea splits in two, allowing them to walk over the dry part, and the other part drowns all the Egyptians. For what, I wonder?
  

Now, to your question, how else could this have happened? I'll tell you.

• Moses gets sick of the discrimination, grabs a bazooka, goes over to the Pharaoh and says, "Free us, dog, or I'll bust you all."
  
  
• Pharaoh relents and they all go to the sea. Pharaoh sends army. Moses radios engineering and they use their uber construction abilities to build a bridge in less than 10 minutes across the sea.
  
  
• Israelites hurry across the bridge, and then Moses radios Air Support, telling them to bomb the bridge, and then bomb the Egyptians. End of story.

Now, if this hurts your religious sentiments, I'm sorry, but how the hell is my story any less likely than yours?

[pigspark]

well i know their maybe a god but in 1 single entity or form.... but no solid proof

[Vasu]

Okay, just to clear up the confusion about my previous post,

Your answer will probably be, "They did not have such technology then." Well my point is, "We do not have such incidents NOW."


Or maybe you'll say that's not how it's described in the Bible which has recorded history." Well, the Bible has lots of things described "figuratively" doesn't it? Maybe the burning bush was a TV which lit up and gave Moses directions. And maybe the pestilence which came upon Egypt was just a dusty wind.


And for the last time, unless you reply to all my points, I will not reply to yours.

[Manzcar]

So why does it matter so much to you what people believe that you have to tear it down? You said you wish people would keep their beliefs in there own backyard. Are the people you speak of everyone except you?

And to answer your incorrect statement the Bible states homosexuality is a sin. just like lying. It also says that all Christians should love their neighbor as themselves. Which means you are not to hate. Not even those who would hate and kill you. Just because someone wants to pick and choose pieces of the Bible and apply them incorrectly to support their view, doesn't make it correct.

I must actually work now. I believe in a God. You don't. I don't try to tear you down for not believing, that is your choice. So I am now done with this thread.

[Vasu]

So why does it matter so much to you what people believe that you have to tear it down? You said you wish people would keep their beliefs in there own backyard. Are the people you speak of everyone except you?

It is to satisfy my own curiosity. I find it bewildering that anyone can believe in a god, and the reasons you guys and every other forum I've been to have offered have made it all the more bewildering. "I have communicated with god." "It is a profound emotion."

I cannot understand these reasons, and they are not objective.

And to answer your incorrect statement the Bible states homosexuality is a sin. just like lying. It also says that all Christians should love their neighbor as themselves. Which means you are not to hate. Not even those who would hate and kill you. Just because someone wants to pick and choose pieces of the Bible and apply them incorrectly to support their view, doesn't make it correct.

Why is it a sin? I can understand why lying is a sin. Why is homosexuality a sin? And just because YOU pick and choose parts from the bible and claim them as historical evidence, doesn't make it true.

And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It is YOU who are picking and choosing which parts of the Bible to follow. It is YOU who decides to love his neighbour, and decide not to kill homosexuals. Now, I have no problem with this, but unless you follow the Bible fully, you are not a Christian.

I must actually work now. I believe in a God. You don't. I don't try to tear you down for not believing, that is your choice. So I am now done with this thread.

Just because you do not try to tear down my beliefs does bot make you a better person. I will still question, and try to point out the flaws in your beliefs. If you don't like that, then boohoo.

[Manzcar]

LOL @ boohoo it reminded me of my daughter talking to her brother.

[Vasu]

Listen Manz, I'm sorry for anything in this thread I posted that you might have seen as a personal attack. I don't mind that you believe in god, but I cannot respect that belief until I see some proof for it. If I came on too strong in this thread, it might be because religion has caused me personal pain and anger. I hope you can find it to forgive me.

[Senyx The Soulless one]

These are in Mature Discussions, I'm sure we can all accept that these are subjects that affect us all personally, So no one should have been hurt, We all respect each other's opinions.

If anyone would like to discuss things that MIGHT offend, Do so in PM's, I'm always on and willing to talk to you good people.

As for you Manz, thanks for listening to me.
As for you, Vasu, Thanks for being reasonable about it all.
As for you, Hrae.... lol
And most importantly, As for you, Second amendment, For making this all even more satisfying.

Religion is an aquired taste, We have probably all tried it, If its not for you, Then.... Ehh.
That's probably why this thread got made, To discuss and see things like this from another's viewpoint.