Deity Existence

[Hraesvelg]

As far as "not probable, but possible..." that could apply to anything. ANYthing is possible. That way lies madness. We, as humans, are probability machines. We operate on the idea that what we see is probably true, especially if it can be repeated by other sources or borne out by other forms of evidence. Granted, there are times where something improbable has happened that has to be acknowledged on the sheer amount of evidence presented. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The concept that ANYthing is possible and thus worthy of belief puts your thoughts on par with Last Tuesday-ism, the belief that the entire universe was created Last Tuesday, except that we've all been given thoughts and memories to make us think that the universe is much older. This way lies madness.

That whole "respect my beliefs" canard really doesn't fly, either. Delusional thinking should be shown for what it is. Would you respect someone that believed that invisible fairies lived in his garage? Of course you wouldn't, and if you say you will you're either a fool or a liar.

I guess I could address Christianity specifically, now. The fact that the physical manifestation of a deity decided to have itself tortured should show you the deranged thinking behind the "miracle" of the religion. You have to ask yourself...why did it decide to submit to the torture and pain? Because those are the rules set up BY THE DEITY ITSELF! Yahweh, which is of course the same as Jesus (2/3s of the "Trinity"...monotheism? Yeah, right), said that a sacrifice must be made. He sacrificed himself to himself because of rules created by himself. I can't tell if its sadistic or masochistic, but the logic certainly is tortured.

[Jikanu]

He made rules for us and lived by them himself. Is that "Sadistic"?

[Hraesvelg]

Yes, because the rules are capricious at best and vile at the worst. They certainly don't jive with any sort of merciful deity.

[Jikanu]

Meh. i beg to differ. i think of it as an act of mercy on us. he could've let our sorry asses burn in hell if he wanted to, if you believe in the religion

[Hraesvelg]

The hell that he created.

[Jikanu]

to punish an angel who attempted to overthrow him. because he created us.

[Hraesvelg]

Seems like he could have seen that one coming, being omnipotent and all. I guess his creations were flawed. Doesn't say much for the creator, though.

But, hey, I guess since he has hell laying around, he shouldn't let it go to waste. He'll just use it for the people that act in a manner consistent with, well, how he created them. Sounds like a real swell guy.

[Vasu]

Meh. i beg to differ. i think of it as an act of mercy on us. he could've let our sorry asses burn in hell if he wanted to, if you believe in the religion

What you said earlier still doesn't answer my question. Being omnipotent, god could have instilled in all our minds a deep sense of regret for the sins we have done, and forgiven us all. There was no need to do a sacrifice. Let me bring up all the points I've made in this thread so far, and see how you respond to them.

• The burden of proof lies with the person who proposes a theory.
  
  
• If everything needs a creator, then so does God. Infinite regression
  
  
• There are those who believe that the universe is so complex, that someone absolutely must have turned all the dials, manipulated the figures, and therefore designed it this way. Point one; a designer is not necessary, natural selection will suffice. Point two; exactly how complex would a god need to be to do this? Therefore creating another infinite regression.
  
  
• There are so many religions, and each is just as difficult to prove/disprove. What is your explanation for picking yours, and dismissing the rest?
  

  I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

  
  
• Absolute omnipotence is impossible.
  
  
• Omniscience and omnipotence are incompatible.
  
  
• Religion/belief in god are not required to lead a moral life.
  
  
• While it is impossible to wholly disprove the existence of any god, it is more than possible to deal with the probability of such a being's existence, and the odds do not sway god's way.

There are probably more, but this are the ones I want your input on.

[Vasu]

No, what I don't get is why I have to suffer for sins committed by people I had no control over. I could not have stopped them from eating those fruits, so I am in no way responsible for what was done. So why am I not given an opportunity in the Garden of Eden?

And by the way, I'm still waiting for answers to these. You could take a look at them too, Manz.

• The burden of proof lies with the person who proposes a theory.
  
  
• If everything needs a creator, then so does God. Infinite regression.
  
  
• There are those who believe that the universe is so complex, that someone absolutely must have turned all the dials, manipulated the figures, and therefore designed it this way. Point one; a designer is not necessary, natural selection will suffice. Point two; exactly how complex would a god need to be to do this? Therefore creating another infinite regression.
  
  
• There are so many religions, and each is just as difficult to prove/disprove. What is your explanation for picking yours, and dismissing the rest?
  
  

  Originally Posted by Stephen Henry Roberts

  I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

  
  
• Absolute omnipotence is impossible.
  
  
• Omniscience and omnipotence are incompatible.
  
  
• Religion/belief in god are not required to lead a moral life.
  
  
• While it is impossible to wholly disprove the existence of any god, it is more than possible to deal with the probability of such a being's existence, and the odds do not sway god's way.

I've seen in this thread that many people will post their beliefs in that there is a God. And others will refute the fact that there is a God by tearing down what the others have stated for their reasoning that there is a God.

I propose to then turn the tables. It is obvious that there are those that have a firm belief that there is no God. So I am open to here how you can prove that there is not a God.

Please give me your proofs that there is no God and maybe you will be able to convince me that there is not a God.

First, it is impossible to prove a negative. It is called the argument from ignorance.

Argument from ignorance
The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:

• Something is currently unexplained or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) true.
• Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven.

Second of all, I have stated and re-stated already in this thread that the burden of proof lies with the proposer. Why don't you prove to me, that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist, and then I can prove that your god doesn't exist. Why don't you prove to me that Invisible Pink Unicorns don't exist, and I will prove to you that your god doesn't exist. Hell, why don't you prove to me that Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry doesn't exist, and I will prove that god doesn't exist.

And lastly, I have always said that the probability of god's existence is low. I have never outruled god. Why don't you look at my first post in the thread (the one that addressed the voters based on what option they voted for).

[Senyx The Soulless one]

No, what I don't get is why I have to suffer for sins committed by people I had no control over. I could not have stopped them from eating those fruits, so I am in no way responsible for what was done. So why am I not given an opportunity in the Garden of Eden?

And by the way, I'm still waiting for answers to these. You could take a look at them too, Manz.








First, it is impossible to prove a negative. It is called the argument from ignorance.



Second of all, I have stated and re-stated already in this thread that the burden of proof lies with the proposer. Why don't you prove to me, that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist, and then I can prove that your god doesn't exist. Why don't you prove to me that Invisible Pink Unicorns don't exist, and I will prove to you that your god doesn't exist. Hell, why don't you prove to me that Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry doesn't exist, and I will prove that god doesn't exist.

And lastly, I have always said that the probability of god's existence is low. I have never outruled god. Why don't you look at my first post in the thread (the one that addressed the voters based on what option they voted for).

Well for one, The "Truth" i was raised to believe is that God has always been there. An eternity before us, Sitting there, no one created him, He has just always been there, If you think to hard, Your head starts to hurt, no?
And secondly, Why would god sit there for an infinity before us? Was he bored and decided to make us?

And also: Adam and Eve were the most base version of humanity, God knew that they were capable of wrongdoing and gave them that choice, I believe that god knows what we would have all done, before we, ourselves did it, Fair? No. But that's just how lovely he is.
I personally would have been happy naked and stupid. But clothed and banished from a garden seems okay too..

My point stands: What god is that merciless?