Weapons and block

[Dynamics]

Blocks don't involve just defending against an enemy's weapons full attack, that would be foolhardy. In reality a competent staff user would try to block a sword user at their weapons hilt, the source of the momentum of the swing. The staff has a much more extensive reach than the sword, so the staff user will take advantage of this and try to disarm the sword user. The sword user's best tactic against this is to repeatedly thrust into the opponent's torso, which would be much harder to defend against for a staff user, and will most likely force him/her to begin evasive maneuvors.

Blocking doesn't always involve negating an enemy attack with your own defense, it can involve offensives as well.

I've already told people that I don't want this thread to discuss how "realistic" it is that a staff or bow block a sword. It's possible, just think outside the square here, they could just be blocking the hilt of the blade by stepping in slightly. With swords, the power becomes less and less as you get closer to the hilt.

I want to discuss how fair you think it would be if this were implemented into the game. Why should the block gained from endurance be exclusive to shield users? Doesn't this turn people off without shields from using their free stats on endurance? By not allowing characters the block from endurance, doesn't it scar overall character versatility? I mean, I was reading a "full end mage" thread the other day, and immediately thought it was absurd because the mage wouldn't benefit from the block, which is the best aspect of the endurance stat in my opinion.

[Lafieru]

Ummmmm. I really have to disagree.

End doesn't give you as much benefit because you're a mage/archer? Well, you know what? You're a mage/archer. Of course it wouldn't. If you think mages/archers should get block from end because it's more fair, then I think clerics should get double the crit bonus from spirit because it's fair. I mean, think about it - we only have half a DD's DPS, so our points in spirit are half as useful. But guess what - as cool as it'd be, that'd destroy the balance. My cleric HAS TO suck at DD because she's great at so many other things. And that's the point of having classes.

Call me unfair or mean if you want, but that's how it works, and I agree with it. ;x

[Blaaaaaaaah]

Your argument doesn't sway me at all. Block won't make a character more broken if you give them it, so your overall argument is nulled.

I just think it's silly that characters without shields don't fully benefit from endurance. A lot of archers and mages invest points into endurance to make themselves more hardy, yet the points are partially wasted because you won't benefit from the bonus block that endurance gives.

Then wouldn't that make shields pointless? The point of getting a shield is for the block rate. If everyone gets block rate from endurance, why get the shield for?

I kind of agree with Laffie. o:

[MagesRequiem]

Then wouldn't that make shields pointless? The point of getting a shield is for the block rate. If everyone gets block rate from endurance, why get the shield for?

I kind of agree with Laffie. o:

Because then you'd have twice as much block rate as a person without?

[Blaaaaaaaah]

Because then you'd have twice as much block rate as a person without?

Does shield give us enough block rate that will actually be twice as much? I mean, even with my shield now, I don't notice myself blocking that much. o.O

[MagesRequiem]

Does shield give us enough block rate that will actually be twice as much? I mean, even with my shield now, I don't notice myself blocking that much. o.O

That is because you phail. I will teach you in the ways of... not phailing. But for a price...

[Blaaaaaaaah]

What's the point on getting endurance on other characters then? What I'm proposing will make the stats more versatile for all classes. Laffy's argument was self defeating. He argued that it was balanced that a cleric doesn't get double the critical rate from spirit. While that's all well and true, what's the relation with critical and block? His example isn't even on the same line of thought as mine. I'm asking if a stat would be more fair if it benefitted all classes equally. Endurance doesn't do this. Only shield users get block, and no one else. I could hardly call that balanced.

But a shield will allow us to enhance the use of that stat - this is why we get a shield! I really wouldn't get the point in getting a shield if it all classes get block rate. Extra defense and HP is already a significant amount - I notice that an archer with 10-15 endurance (forgot exact numbers) tank better than an archer with no endurance at all. Just having extra HP and defense is enough to be make a difference.

Now let's imagine that weapons for each class get a certain amount of block rate. Picture this: an archer that has a full endurance build. They will be blocking half of the hits with their END/block rate on weapon and evading the other half with their natural stat DEX. Their damage will still be great (of course, this will vary depending where they put their stat points to) as they have the skills for it. They will also crit a lot because of their stats on the weapon.

Then you have a full end cleric. They block half the hits with their END/block rate on weapon, and they will be further blocking the other half of the hits from the extra block rate of the shield compared to the archer's weapon as well as with their shield block rate skill. However, their damage will still suck. We don't have that many offense skills and our weapons doesn't have the extra crit rate.

If you compare the archer and cleric : archer seems to sound better because they can block AND do a sufficient amount of damage, whereas the cleric can only block properly.

Now let's imagine the same situation in the game right now. Full end archer = survive a bit better, evades, deals nice damage. Full end cleric = blocks and survive very well (more than the archer), deals only moderate damage. This will prevent a class from becoming too powerful in both defense AND damage.

And this is why only shield users - namely clerics and fighters - get to benefit from block rate. If archers and mages get block rate too - what will make clerics and fighters special? Archers and mages will get to block/survive almost just as well as a cleric and fighter and deal great damage while the clerics and fighters can't.

The point of having different classes is so that each class get to master a certain ability. We have weapons and skills to help master that ability. You can bring up a fighter/cleric that deals a lot of damage by following a certain build, but they will never match up an archer/mage who also does the same thing and uses a build that enhances their damage. This is the same vice versa. You can have a full END archer/mage, but their defense will never match up a full END cleric/fighter. Different classes for different abilities are needed to have the game in balance. If you make everything completely fair between all classes - then we're all going to end up to be the same and that's no fun at all.

[Dynamics]

Where are you getting these statistics with block and evasion =/. It's not going to tip over that much at all. An archer evading half the time and blocking half the time? I don't think so. I'm not trying to make every single little thing fair between every character. I would just like to see all the free stats to benefit every class the same (excluding strength and intel), because why shouldn't they? You're treating it as though if this were implemented, the entire game's balance would tip over. Would it honestly do that?

If archers and mages get block rate too - what will make clerics and fighters special? Archers and mages will get to block/survive almost just as well as a cleric and fighter and deal great damage while the clerics and fighters can't.

You're neglecting a lot of details here. In answer to the question. A fighter would have enormous amounts of HP and a bigger defense bonus from his equipments (archers get a higher evasion boost from their equipments, and a weaker defense gain). That is what would keep the fighter special. It's a far more capable tank, and the archer would never be able to match that. A cleric has a heal, and various support abilities for themselves and their party. That's what makes the cleric special. Whilst all the archer really has going for him is slightly improved survivability, and higher damage. He won't have the HP, defense or heal that the other two classes you brought up have. He isn't the same as either the cleric or fighter in most respects. Fighters, clerics and archers/mages are unique, and still capable in their respective fields of tanking, support and dealing damage, regardless of whether or not you give them block.

[Lafieru]

What's the point on getting endurance on other characters then? What I'm proposing will make the stats more versatile for all classes. Laffy's argument was self defeating. She argued that it was balanced that a cleric doesn't get double the critical rate from spirit. While that's all well and true, what's the relation between her critical argument and my block one? Her example isn't even on the same line of thought as mine. I'm asking if a stat would be more fair if it benefitted all classes equally. Endurance doesn't do this. Only shield users get block from endurance, making it a less worthwhile stat for non shield users. I could hardly call that balanced.

Well, I meant it to be more of an example for my argument. Spr for clerics and End for DDs are two examples of stats not benefiting all classes equally, and my argument is still that a stat really _should not_ benefit all classes equally.

BTW, I actually think Fiesta is already more than fair with the stat bonuses. In Diablo II, Sorcs get get 4 HP per vit while Sorcs get 2 HP per vit. In D&D, a magic user will typically get something like 1d4 HP per con, while a fighter will get 1d10 or 1d12.

"Unfair"? Yes. But there's a reason why many RPG makers think "unfair" is the way it's supposed to be.

[SockPuppet]

I have to agree with the sentiment that not all stats should benefit all classes equally. If you're not a mage, guess what? Int doesn't help that much. If you are a mage, guess what? Str doesn't help that much. End doesn't benefit all classes equally, but it's hardly the only stat to do that. Heck, I view it as one of the more versatile statistics myself.
Also on the subject of being able to block with weapons in real life: the construct I have in my mind of wizard staves is that they may not, in themselves, be delicate, but the magic they're enchanted with is. I mean, sure, you COULD block with a stave with several layers of magic on it, but if that would risk ruining the enchantments, would you want to? Same with bows, sure, you CAN block an axe with a bow/crossbow in real life, but after two or three blocks your bow's not exactly firing straight anymore.