Deity Existence

[Vasu]

Well, basically, what makes it miraculous is the fact that there are like, extremely tiny pictures of the scene Juan Diego himself might've seen when he was revealing the picture on his clothes. there's the bishop, and everyone else that was there, and they're so tiny that no human being could've painted them.

Have you ever heard of rice writing? I suggest you look it up. If people can write that small, then they can draw that small.

and, as for solid evidence for believing... first of all, when you go into adoration, (praying in the presence of a consecrated host; basically, spiritually, in the presence of Jesus) you get this really strange, emotional feeling. i know that's not so solid, but it's true, and emotions, in my belief, at least, arent scientifically explainable all the time.

I'm sorry for being so blunt here, but when you have sex and have an orgasm, you also get a nice happy feeling. That's scientifically explainable. When you win a game that you played well in, you get a happy feeling. That's scientifically explainable too.

The only reason you feel happy worshipping Jesus is because you believe in a false tenet. You believe that you will be forgiven for your sins, however horrible they may be. Who wouldn't want that? You believe that even after you die, there's a loving father figure willing to take you in to his family, and shower you with love and give you eternal happiness. That is so nice. Even I would like to believe in that. But the point is, there is no proof for it, and being a rational man, I will not believe it how much ever I want to.

Plus, if you think about it, everything had to start with something. Even the big bang had to be caused by SOMETHING.

And that SOMETHING in turn had to be caused by something. Turtles all the way down. I have already dealt with this in my first meaningful post in the thread, have you read it?

And alot of what's in the bible makes sense. i mean, the old testament was quite cruel, obviously, but you have to take the times into consideration as well. Plus, later, in the new testament, it was all nullified by Jesus as he replaced the angry penalties with laws of forgiveness.

It makes sense? Great! Use it as a code of morality, fine. Use it to help you make moral decisions, fine. But believe in a sky wizard? Why? About the loving Jesus and OT, read that para about wishful thinking.

[Jikanu]

Have you ever heard of rice writing? I suggest you look it up. If people can write that small, then they can draw that small.



I'm sorry for being so blunt here, but when you have sex and have an orgasm, you also get a nice happy feeling. That's scientifically explainable. When you win a game that you played well in, you get a happy feeling. That's scientifically explainable too.

The only reason you feel happy worshipping Jesus is because you believe in a false tenet. You believe that you will be forgiven for your sins, however horrible they may be. Who wouldn't want that? You believe that even after you die, there's a loving father figure willing to take you in to his family, and shower you with love and give you eternal happiness. That is so nice. Even I would like to believe in that. But the point is, there is no proof for it, and being a rational man, I will not believe it how much ever I want to.



And that SOMETHING in turn had to be caused by something. Turtles all the way down. I have already dealt with this in my first meaningful post in the thread, have you read it?



It makes sense? Great! Use it as a code of morality, fine. Use it to help you make moral decisions, fine. But believe in a sky wizard? Why? About the loving Jesus and OT, read that para about wishful thinking.

I beg to differ.

1. The images are like, microscopic.

2. That's because of nature though. Everything you just explained goes back to our basest instincts. When you win a game, you're the alpha male or female. you feel on top of it all. Just like true love, (not lust), this is something quite different. it's not a simple feeling of "oh, joy, peace". it's quite strange, and unexplainable. Honestly, you wouldnt understand if you havent experienced it

3. I'm sorry, but "sky wizard" is FAR overly-simplified. he's not some kind of conjurer; by posting that, you're bringing the argument to a far lower level. According to Christianity, He is far far more than a sky wizard. You're putting it in a simplified way to make your point, i understand that, but it's also quite innaccurate.

Honestly, Mankind will never get through this argument. You'll never know till death. I honestly doubt we have the mental capacity to understand where we came from, whether it be a random release of energy an all-powerful God. Just as animals dont in the slightest way understand us, we might never completely understand God, the universe, or anything.

[Vasu]

I beg to differ.

1. The images are like, microscopic.

So is the writing.

2. That's because of nature though. Everything you just explained goes back to our basest instincts. When you win a game, you're the alpha male or female. you feel on top of it all. Just like true love, (not lust), this is something quite different. it's not a simple feeling of "oh, joy, peace". it's quite strange, and unexplainable. Honestly, you wouldnt understand if you havent experienced it.

I already told you why you like believing it. You feel peaceful because you know you're not going to be put to task for all your misdeeds. Hell, I felt so liberated once I decided I was an atheist too, and I can just as easily say that I felt the kind of joy you described.

3. I'm sorry, but "sky wizard" is FAR overly-simplified. he's not some kind of conjurer; by posting that, you're bringing the argument to a far lower level. According to Christianity, He is far far more than a sky wizard. You're putting it in a simplified way to make your point, i understand that, but it's also quite innaccurate.

So go ahead, define god.

Honestly, Mankind will never get through this argument. You'll never know till death. I honestly doubt we have the mental capacity to understand where we came from, whether it be a random release of energy an all-powerful God. Just as animals dont in the slightest way understand us, we might never completely understand God, the universe, or anything.

The point is to try. When I find a gap in my knowledge, I look for a good, rational way to fill it. I don't jump up and say "goddidit!" What made the universe? We don't know. "goddidit!" Who drew that painting you were talking about, in such a microscopic way? We don't know. "goddidit!" What causes eclipses? This also used to be "goddidit" till a scientific explanation was found. Similarly, answers will be found for unanswered questions, and it doesn't help to fill up all the gaps in our knowledge with an omnipotent, omniscient (which are incompatible BTW, you really should address some of the points I brought up earlier in the thread) being.

[Jikanu]

1. the writing requires specific tools, and alot of practice. It's an artform, not something you can just pick up and do.

2. ...i just SAID it's not a joy, peace feeling.

It's an impossible feeling to understand without feeling it. it's far too hard to explain... it's all the emotions in one. sorrow. pain. happiness. joy. all of it. you cant summarize it in any which way. it's all of them, yet none of them.

3. Honestly, he's undefinable. But defining him as a sky wizard is also discluding all he did for mankind, according to Christianity. you simplify it to belittle the idea and to make a point, (or so it seems; if not, please correct me) but a "sky wizard" wouldnt feel the need to sacrifice himself in one of the the most painful ways imaginable.

4. Science could also be defined as an attempt to see how God does things. How do you know that physics, biology, etc. arent just God's cookbook (to put it basically)?

And honestly, on that note, how is your theory any more plausible? i mean, how is the thought of an explosion coming out of nowhere and creating anything make any more sense than God?

Science, according to you, can explain almost everything. So use it to tell me how it's possible for the big bang to have occured from out of nowhere.

[Hraesvelg]

.

3. Honestly, he's undefinable. But defining him as a sky wizard is also discluding all he did for mankind, according to Christianity. you simplify it to belittle the idea and to make a point, (or so it seems; if not, please correct me) but a "sky wizard" wouldnt feel the need to sacrifice himself in one of the the most painful ways imaginable.

He sacrificed Himself to Himself to protect us from Himself with the full knowledge He would not cease to be. Color me not impressed.

[Vasu]

1. the writing requires specific tools, and alot of practice. It's an artform, not something you can just pick up and do.

Practice.

. ...i just SAID it's not a joy, peace feeling.


It's an impossible feeling to understand without feeling it. it's far too hard to explain... it's all the emotions in one. sorrow. pain. happiness. joy. all of it. you cant summarize it in any which way. it's all of them, yet none of them.

Let me quote Homer Simpson here: You take forever to say nothing.

3. Honestly, he's undefinable. But defining him as a sky wizard is also discluding all he did for mankind, according to Christianity. you simplify it to belittle the idea and to make a point, (or so it seems; if not, please correct me) but a "sky wizard" wouldnt feel the need to sacrifice himself in one of the the most painful ways imaginable.

And this is the biggest flaw in your argument. You don't even know what it is that you claim we should all be worshipping.

Why don't you tell me why he decided to sacrifice himself? He's omnipotent, so he could surely have saved all our souls by snapping his fingers. There was no need to crucify his son.

4. Science could also be defined as an attempt to see how God does things. How do you know that physics, biology, etc. arent just God's cookbook (to put it basically)?

Because there is no need to think that they are. How do you know the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist?

And honestly, on that note, how is your theory any more plausible? i mean, how is the thought of an explosion coming out of nowhere and creating anything make any more sense than God?

Science, according to you, can explain almost everything. So use it to tell me how it's possible for the big bang to have occured from out of nowhere.

Atleast you've admitted your theory isn't plausible. You say that a god appeared out of nowhere and created the universe within 6 days, 5000 years ago. I say, I do not know how the universe was created, and that your idea is frankly ridiculous. I could just as easily say that the FSM created the universe with his noodly appendage, or that Invisible Pink Unicorns pranced about in a circle and locked horns to provide enough energy for the big bang to occur, and you cannot disprove me.

[Jikanu]

Plausible, maybe not, but still possible. The 6 days could be a metaphore; who says how long a day is for him? it could be a billion years for us.

As for hrae, it still required an unbelievable amount of suffering. he refused to take anything to dull the pain, though, as evidenced by refusing to take wine spiked with myrrh, and accepted the task before him, KNOWING what every whiplash was going to feel like.

And once again, i have no disrespect towards your beliefs and i ask you to show respect towards mine.

As for practice, Juan Diego had no previous practice in that art, to my knowlege; i doubt he was very rich and had time for such amusements.

[Vasu]

Plausible, maybe not, but still possible. The 6 days could be a metaphore; who says how long a day is for him? it could be a billion years for us.

This is so amazingly common. The parts of the Bible that aren't explainable, or outright impossible are metaphors.

As for hrae, it still required an unbelievable amount of suffering. he refused to take anything to dull the pain, though, as evidenced by refusing to take wine spiked with myrrh, and accepted the task before him, KNOWING what every whiplash was going to feel like.

You haven't answered my question. If God is omnipotent, he didn't need to have his son die in order to absolve us of our sins. He could just say: Hey, presto!

And once again, i have no disrespect towards your beliefs and i ask you to show respect towards mine.

I am asking the reason for your beliefs, You have avoided the point so far. You have avoided countering any argument of mine which is difficult to reply to. You have provided us with no reason to think that your belief is rational, and you want us to respect it.

As for practice, Juan Diego had no previous practice in that art, to my knowlege; i doubt he was very rich and had time for such amusements.

If not him, someone else stepped in and drew it. What's the big difference?

[Jikanu]

This is so amazingly common. The parts of the Bible that aren't explainable, or outright impossible are metaphors.



You haven't answered my question. If God is omnipotent, he didn't need to have his son die in order to absolve us of our sins. He could just say: Hey, presto!



I am asking the reason for your beliefs, You have avoided the point so far. You have avoided countering any argument of mine which is difficult to reply to. You have provided us with no reason to think that your belief is rational, and you want us to respect it.



If not him, someone else stepped in and drew it. What's the big difference?

The reason? feeling. emotion. i know it's not scientifically or politically correct, but i cant help but feel that we're not all that's there.

And who's to say God doesnt feel the need to abide by his own rules to set an example for us? he knew a sacrifice was needed to be made to repent for sins, so he made the ultimate one.

plus, perhaps it's all part of a beautiful plan; there's so many parallels between the new testament and old testament things; abraham almost sacrificed his son, due to God's request, and God sacrificed his own son to forgive us of our sins.

[Hraesvelg]

As far as "not probable, but possible..." that could apply to anything. ANYthing is possible. That way lies madness. We, as humans, are probability machines. We operate on the idea that what we see is probably true, especially if it can be repeated by other sources or borne out by other forms of evidence. Granted, there are times where something improbable has happened that has to be acknowledged on the sheer amount of evidence presented. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The concept that ANYthing is possible and thus worthy of belief puts your thoughts on par with Last Tuesday-ism, the belief that the entire universe was created Last Tuesday, except that we've all been given thoughts and memories to make us think that the universe is much older. This way lies madness.

That whole "respect my beliefs" canard really doesn't fly, either. Delusional thinking should be shown for what it is. Would you respect someone that believed that invisible fairies lived in his garage? Of course you wouldn't, and if you say you will you're either a fool or a liar.

I guess I could address Christianity specifically, now. The fact that the physical manifestation of a deity decided to have itself tortured should show you the deranged thinking behind the "miracle" of the religion. You have to ask yourself...why did it decide to submit to the torture and pain? Because those are the rules set up BY THE DEITY ITSELF! Yahweh, which is of course the same as Jesus (2/3s of the "Trinity"...monotheism? Yeah, right), said that a sacrifice must be made. He sacrificed himself to himself because of rules created by himself. I can't tell if its sadistic or masochistic, but the logic certainly is tortured.