Deity Existence

[Jikanu]

But "times were different" then, so he absolutely had to intervene. No free will for the first born of Egypt. No free will for the worshippers of other religions and gods. No free will for the wives and daughters of the same who were raped.

Im almost certain that God never rewarded those who raped and pillaged and sinned. If you have the passage proving otherwise, please read it to me. He did kill the first borns of egypt, but i have faith that he guided their souls to heaven, as he would the just among the worshipers of other religions.

Have you all ever once considered that it's possible that every little thing that happens is part of a greater plan, one that every living being is part of? The butterfly effect?

However, this isnt really a fair argument. a multitude of those who have had much time to think about this due to age vs. 1-2 who do believe o_o

Honestly, i havent had time to study and think it over. im relatively sure that im one of the youngest ones in this thread.

[Hraesvelg]

Rape?
Isaiah chapter 13, in particular verses 15-16.

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."

Talking about the fall of Babylon, which Yaweh himself was going to bring about.
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Pillage?
Deuteronomy 3, in particular verses 6 and 7.

And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.
But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves.

This was done with the blessing of the Most High, according to verse two of that chapter:

And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.

[Jikanu]

Ah, but im relatively certain that those countries all fired the first blow. the isrealites werent like the barbarians of Europe, they didnt go around and rape and pillage. Yaweh only did that to those who wronged his followers; may i remind you that when his followers sinned they had the SEVEREST of punishments also?

[Phantom Badger]

Hmmm, Not sure if I said this already but ''God'' has shown many signes of the 7 deadly sins.

Sloth - Taking the 7th day to 'rest' after creating the universe/earth
Wrath - Uhm, look practially anywhere in the bible.
Vanity - I am the Lord, the only Lord, worship me and no other.'

I'm sure there are others but alas I forget.

[Vasu]

I'm not really that much older than you Jik. You are 14 right? Well I'm 16.

Well, I know Manz is older than both of us, but I don't see any devastating arguments that came from him? (This is not meant as an insult). Age really isn't that much of a factor. I became an atheist when I was 15. I just stopped and thought is all. Just for about an hour or so.

He did kill the first borns of egypt, but i have faith that he guided their souls to heaven, as he would the just among the worshipers of other religions.

Is it written in the Bible that god guided their souls to heaven? Is it? At any rate, he has denied them a life for something they never did.Not exactly what I would call benevolent.

Ah, but im relatively certain that those countries all fired the first blow. the isrealites werent like the barbarians of Europe, they didnt go around and rape and pillage. Yaweh only did that to those who wronged his followers; may i remind you that when his followers sinned they had the SEVEREST of punishments also?

So it's like, "Someone raped my sister. Let me go rape his sister back so we'll be even." IS that what you mean by casting the first stone? Whatever happened to mercy and benevolence?

[Jikanu]

Once again, those were barbaric times. And i have FAITH That he guided their souls to heaven. I believe that God sees the crying out of the spirit to him, regardless of the religion, and sees that as an attempt to form a relationship with him.

And BDex, perhaps we're living in the 7th day right now and by resting he's allowing us all to have free will. it could very well be a metaphore. Plus he was trying to make examples for us, later on, so we would observe the sabbath.

And he says to worship him because his is the way of truth, according to Christianity and Judaism.

And for wrath, you're just stating the same old arguments that we've been throwing around for the last couple pages. And you tell me IM circular...

[Vasu]

Once again, those were barbaric times. And i have FAITH That he guided their souls to heaven. I believe that God sees the crying out of the spirit to him, regardless of the religion, and sees that as an attempt to form a relationship with him.

The Bible says he murdered them all. The Bible does not say he guided them to heaven. You say that the Bible is the ultimate truth. If you are going to make unfounded presumptions, I cannot prove anything to you. Let me state it again. Whether or not the first born were lead to heaven, the thing is injustice was done in the most brutal of ways. By god. By a supposed benevolent being.

And BDex, perhaps we're living in the 7th day right now and by resting he's allowing us all to have free will. it could very well be a metaphore. Plus he was trying to make examples for us, later on, so we would observe the sabbath.

You know what? He could've made the examples without violence. And you know what else? The whole bible could bloody well be a metaphor. Maybe god is a metaphor for the FSM! Unfounded assumptions.

And for wrath, you're just stating the same old arguments that we've been throwing around for the last couple pages. And you tell me IM circular...

Okay, can you quote the posts as to where we "dealt" with wrath? When I say "dealt" I mean, have we come to an agreement? Have you refuted one of my arguments about it?

[Jikanu]

We were in the middle of the argument. I was trying to come to an agreement with you, im just saying i dont see much of a point in starting a debate and then randomly restating your opening statement (i.e. "i think God was very vengeful in the new testament" "but he had some reasoning" "but that reasoning was invalid because of so and so. Oh, and he was very vengeful"

and i meant the example of keeping the sabbath day holy.

And you keep making this a one sided debate, because the human mind and religion has two sides: Strict Logic, and Faith. You must also take it into account that God is on a higher plain; he has different rules, for all we know. you cant understand him without undestanding his side of the story, which we obviously cant unless he decides to directly communicate with us, or until we die.

[Vasu]

We were in the middle of the argument. I was trying to come to an agreement with you, im just saying i dont see much of a point in starting a debate and then randomly restating your opening statement (i.e. "i think God was very vengeful in the new testament" "but he had some reasoning" "but that reasoning was invalid because of so and so. Oh, and he was very vengeful"

Wrong. It is more like, "but that reasoning is invalid because of so and so therefore he is vengeful.

and i meant the example of keeping the sabbath day holy.

Okay.

And you keep making this a one sided debate, because the human mind and religion has two sides: Strict Logic, and Faith. You must also take it into account that God is on a higher plain; he has different rules, for all we know. you cant understand him without undestanding his side of the story, which we obviously cant unless he decides to directly communicate with us, or until we die.

Yes, you have finally admitted something. If a god exists such as the one you speak of, you don't really know ANYTHING about him. The ant example by Hrae comes to mind. So why do you think that going to Church every Sunday is approved by him? And for you to be right here, you have to prove a few things.


1. That god exists.
2. That he lies in a different plane.
3. That he doesn't conform to the physical rules as we know them.
4. That he can communicate with us.
5. That he is intelligent.
6. That we can understand/meet with god when we die.





And finally, this is the last and final time I will ask you to respond to the full post. In the future I will consider the points conceded.

[Jikanu]

I Believe that we rise to a somewhat higher plane when we die; we take on a higher understanding of the universe. not as high as God's, of course, but enough to comprehend a bit more than previously possible.

I believe he DOES communicate us, but he keeps some things a mystery, for whatever reason it may be.