Thread: Deity Existence
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Old 05-05-2009, 10:41 AM   #487
lamchopz
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Allow me to play devil advocate this time. I will now show that God can both omnipotent and omniscient.

Aside: I must caution the wording that has been used. You can't ask "Can God create a rock that He(?) cannot lift?". The question in itself is a paradox. Since one assumes God is omnipotent (having power to do anything), God is therefore able to create anything and do anything. So yes, harking back to what Jikanu said: size and complexity don't matter if God is omnipotent and omniscient. Then we must make this distinction: God is meant to transcend physical boundary, therefore applying a physical limit on God makes no sense. Now what exactly is a "spiritual being" is anyone's guess but it's similar to the discussion of non-baryonic dark matter that is of intense interest in the physics community. There's something we do not yet know.

Also, I put a question mark next to "He" because this is clearly a sexist form. It is not coincident that "He", used to refer to God, and he, a pronoun for male, look the same. By this designation of "he", instead of "she" (which is also sexist) or something else that is neither (which can be thought of easily by the brilliant mind of the past), it shows how the notion of "God" came about: yes, it was told through a man, not a woman and so largely, the whole doctrine was affected by the man's reasoning and wording. If one claims that this is the man's prejudiced formulation of the termimology, then well, he/she is saying that the religion can't really... be trusted because with one fault, there may entail others, and consequently no one can take it as truth any more.

Back on topic: At first when I read about the notion of omnipotence and omniscience being incompatible, it made sense. However, when I read it today, it made sense and didn't.

The key point about incompatibility between omnipotence and omniscience perhaps is this: if one knows that something will happen, one cannot change it because changing it will turn it into a different thing, which is obviously not what one saw in the beginning. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That made sense.

Today, it doesn't. I sat at the computer for a while, thinking how that I once understood this and just can't see it again. It then became apparent that in my mind I was thinking about the theory that an event can lead to many possible outcomes, namely the current action leads to a specific future. I randomly call it the Many Futures hypothesis. In essence, this is just the crude version of the Multiverse theory.

Back to the point of omnipotent and omniscient being incompatible, let's look at it with the idea that one event leads to different future outcomes depending what action or set of actions is undertaken. If God is omniscient, God can see these possible outcomes. Being omnipotent, God can direct an event to a specific outcome (future). With this, the incompatibility of omnipotence and omniscience is completely abolished.

With this consideration, I refer to "free will" and "omnipotence and omniscience". I'll start by saying "free will" is the propaganda that existing religions created. Here's how: if God can direct the course of one's life, as is often cited, surely what one chooses and does, no matter how numerous the future possibilities of each moment in the person's life is, it has been seen and acted upon by God. If one chooses to keep "omnipotence and omniscience" as description of God, one must relinquish the notion of "free will". Now since all existing religions are so fond of all three, I must say that they're just creations of man, not God.

A fruitful point here is that the notion of "free will" is valid only as far as one preceives it as true (read: belief). The key is: if one chooses to worship an all-knowing and all-powerful and benevolent God, one must give up "free will" as having God who knows and influences what the peson does, one cannot say "I chose it by my own free will" but "it" was already seen to be happening by the deity, hence, their future was already predetermined.

Notwithstanding, you can choose to say God wants us to act by ourselves and want us to learn things ourselves then God is not benevolent because who would let their sons and daughters commit disgraceful acts as some of us are doing now? Islam in this regard gets it right:

Quote:
We know that Allah has no need of us. If every single person that ever lived or will live worshiped Allah night and day, it would make Him no greater. Likewise, if every single person that ever lived or will live disobeyed Allah night and day, it would not diminish Him one a bit.

[...]

Even the angels were shocked that Allah was going to create a being with free will who would do harm and shed blood. Allah’s answer to them was simply that He knows what they do not know.
source

The Islamic proposition is just that: the Deity created humans to withstand some sort of test so that the right doers will deserve the praise and eternal beautiful afterlife.

As good as it sounds, I have some major problems with Islam, which led me to reject it when I studied it more carefully.

In summary::

- omnipotence and omniscience can be compatible.
- free will does not exist if you choose to believe the Deity is omnipotent and omniscient.
- further proof that existing religions aren't what they claim they are.
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Last edited by lamchopz; 05-05-2009 at 11:01 AM..
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