Low level in KQ = selfish?
 

Something I've thought about a lot, but especially more recently, now that I've started joining Mini Dragon KQs. BTW, what I'm about to say may be considered very harsh, but people that know me know that I'll rarely be "mean" without a reason. Also, I'm horribly pretentious, so that certainly plays a factor. ^_^

My argument: If you frequently join KQs at a low level, you are being selfish. You will not be able to contribute your share to the group, and you will actually take away chances of higher levels, which are crucial to KQ success, to join.

This argument especially applies to the harder KQs (e.g. Robo), and especially especially to Mini Dragon, as there's only one MD KQ per 2 hours.

So I won't be seen as a hypocrite, I personally never joined a MD KQ until last night, as a level 51 cleric. I would've possibly waited longer too, if I was a different class and I wasn't joining along with guildies.

So anyway, do I feel that, for example, everyone has to be level 51 to join MD KQ or else they're the most evil person alive? Of course not - waiting all the way until 51 was my personal choice. But, for example, joining Robo KQ every two hours as a level 33 fighter? Still not the most evil person alive, but maybe #2 or 3. ;)

Thoughts? Comments? Death threats? Let me hear them. =)

I agree newbs are selfish as well, however there is nothing we can do to stop this XD.

When u see Jericho and I yelling at ppl telling them what to do, it makes up for them being in the 40's and that were trying to help PASS the KQ for EVERYONE so that its not a waste of a trip from Uruga to Elderine.

I dont like yelling at ppl telling them what to do in the mini dragon KQ but HEY u wanna pass? just follow our instruction and the awards u get will be hopefully good.

People that complain that we yell at them and such I WANT TO SEE U help 10 ppl+ in telling them what to do ESPECIALLY if its there first time...

So yes people are selfish but i guess us high lvls have to make up for it in the end anyways...

BUSO RENKIN FTW!!! lol

Just because you're a low level in a KQ doesn't mean you're selfish, nor a complete waste.

Everyone contributes in some way, especially clerics who can heal (which is especially helpful to tanks, which are a main part of the mission). Any damage given is another step towards victory.

I've participated in KQ from the time I was able to. It's a lot of fun and hate missing out on even one, though I can't be on every other hour all day. @.@

I'm all for helping lower levels in KQ, and even encourage it to those scared to enter one in fear of disappointing their party or something.

So it takes a few more minutes to complete the KQ die to lack of skills from the lower levels, but it's not necessarily selfish.

The point remains, however, that in KQ there are people who are merely "there" (for the reward and exp) and then there are people who make the difference between whether the KQ succeeds or not.

I'm not at all against people entering KQs whenever the game allows them to, I'm merely saying the chances of actually succeeding do dramatically change based on who enters.

The very first KQ, King Slime, becomes available at level 6 I believe... what do you think would happen if one day you joined on your level 6 character, but everyone else of the 14 other people were also level 6? yeah, I'm guessing there'd be quite a few "wtf" and "lol" in the chat box. :P

xD

Would be quite a bit of lvling before reaching the first level of the mountain.

But yes, leechers are a totally different matter. :[
I joined a Mara KQ and we had 3 people stay at spawn.
Not sure if they got any exp or anything, but that still pissed me off.

king slime is lvl 5...

anyways, it's kinda the developers' fault for giving the quests for that kq starting at that minimum level and for setting the minimum level so low that anybody that joins at that level can't really do much at all. so i wouldn't call people who join then selfish unless the only reason tehy do it is for a free ride. the thing that a lot of people like best is being able to join kq's so they do it as soon as they can or some to complete quests at those levels. i know i would never wait tostart the gold hill quests since it always takes me forever to get the golden bugs (lvl 25 now and only have 6, been in like 4 gold hills)

I don't think it's so much the level of the character as it is the level of the brain controlling it. There can be higher leveled characters who can't tank if their life depended on it... while a person who is maybe 5-10 level below them will try their best to help the team. You shouldn't consider low leveled = selfish. Because whomever those low leveled ones you met that you considered selfish will eventually just become high leveled selfish people.

ie. The Honeying KQ, I've heard that to win the KQ with flying colors you need a good tank, 1-2 clerics, and the rest mages. But does that mean Archers should never join because the rest considered them to be of no use? I just think people who think that way are selfish.

While I do agree with most of your views, it must be said that in this game, level really does matter alot. There's no denying it. No matter how skilled you are, if you're a level 9 tank and there's another tank level 14, there's no question which of you is going to do the tanking. :P

In the end, Fiesta has very little that a person needs to be skilled to do. Some can be ignorant (i.e. a tank who does not use taunts because "they do no dmg.") but these are really the only exceptions.

I think it's more to do with the player... a Higher Level can leech, a low level can do their best... the player (as stated above, the Brain controlling) is the difference...

Will a well played Level 14 do better then a well played level 9? sure, but I think I would rather have that well played level 9 with me then a level 14 who stands back and adds nothing.

i am low lvl (14) and in the king slime kq it sucks caus if they say all heal blablabla caus he is main tank at boss they never look at their party -__-
so clerics that are healing the tank don't heal anyone else and that caused me to die 3 times so i lost kq so yea some are selfish those who are not are really fun people :D and btw i aint selfish i never atk a mob that is already under atk :D (unless the take mine away :P )

Whilst I agree that you really shouldn't attempt a loaded Minidragon until 50, it seems a bit arrogant to say that Low levels in the KQ are selfish. If you take the time to reread your original post the tone itself indicates:

1) Frustration which is completely understandable.
2) Some bitterness for loosing which is completely understandable.
3) Some sadness that people just dont get that they arent ready which is understandable.
4) Some Selfishness yourself...

You categorize most of the entrance levels as useless, which I myself am guilty of during some of the Robo King Quests. But at the same time you, sound a little selfish yourself caring only about the success of the KQ - indirectly referring to the approximate thirty-thousand experience point reward.

Whilst I completely agree that being 50 helps, I dont think its fair to categorize the entrance levels as selfish when I guarantee you, almost all of us are selfish in the respect that we are caring about the treasure chest and large sum of experience...

Here are my views on the whole thing. While I am still pretty much a noob myself (highest character is only level 28), and I have not seen the bigger KQs yet, I have seen a ton of the slime, mara, and GH KQs.

Joining a KQ in and of itself is not a selfish act. Dont care what level you are. This game is supposed to be a fun way to be social. While I do admit that level does play a lot in the success, it is not the only factor, and I will also admit that I have a lot more fun when we win the KQs.

I do however have to admit that I have had an absolute blast in a KQ that we lost. I was at level 15 with my fighter, highest fighter in the KQ by oh I dont know about 8 levels :P, and we only had 1 cleric that was like level 7 as well. Long story short, we made it all the way to the end, killed the king, but only had 3 people left including myself, and died to the rest. It was my last life, and the clerics last life. Needless to say, we failed. But the fact that we got as far as we did, and killed the king, when everything was stacked against us really surprised me. I honestly remember that I was the only person above level 11 in that one. Enough of the fun aspect, on to the winning aspect.

I want to argue one point. I did a GH the other day with 3 other warriors, I was level 27 all 3 of the others were over level 30. I ended up tanking and did a wonderful job. So the whole thing about higher levels always tanking doesnt always apply. Only real true argument I had to make.

As far as greed. I dont feel that someone that is level 5 or 6 joining slime is greedy, unless they sit back at the spawn and just want the free 5 levels and chest. That is greedy. Just like I dont think someone joining mara at 17 is greedy, again unless they sit at the spawn point. What I think is truely greedy are the 4 people that we had in one mara KQ that didnt have any armor or weapons.....wtf is that? And their response "Oh I broke it right before KQ"....so ummmm brains people, buy another one? Or better yet, just dont join. People like that on top of people that sit at the spawn point are the epidemy of greed. They joined the KQ with no gear or weapon in hopes of something decent dropping out of their chest.

anyways I am really starting to ramble, and my entire sentence structure is screwed by now. LOL. hope I didnt upset anyone but this is just the way I feel about it. I attempt to join every KQ I can because I have an absolute blast in them. I came from a very big raid/pvp guild in WoW, and before that I was in one of the strongest raid guilds in EQ. I enjoy getting together with loads of other people and just walking over top of an entire city ....carrnage...get some....its fun... I have been in some really bad KQs that we somehow won, and I have been in a few that were an absolute blast that we lost.

Oh crap I did have one more point to bring up. This happened just the other day in GH. We ended up finding the last key about 45 seconds before time was up. On the other side of the map completely from the gate. Needless to say we failed. 5 or 6 people started yelling about the whole KQ being noobs and thanks for wasting their ******* time. Ok cool, well it would have been....if those 5 or 6 people, plus 3 others hadnt been sitting at the final gate while doing absolutely nothing while the rest of us were out trying to find the key. No wonder we didnt win...People do your part, be a team, help out the lower guys, and dont be asses and all will be good. Another perfect example of good team work no matter what levels. Fighter, I was level 21 at the time, tanked mara, 1 cleric, 2 mages, 2 archers, 10 fighters, the highest levels other than me were the cleric and the mages, all 3 were around 24 iirc. we walked through, blasted our way to the end, killed mara and marlone in 2 beautiful pulls with me tanking. and still had about 25 minutes to spare. Now I know thats not the fastest, I completed it at level 25 with 34 minutes to spare, but look at the odds and the numbers. It was pretty amazing, no one even thought we would come close. That just backs up the brains over numbers statement thats all. Ok seriously sorry this is so long.

Well, failure happens anytime and anywhere, so it wouldn't be right by blaming it on the low levels. The whole point of KQ is team work, whether what levels or classes you are. Is always nice to be confident in it being a succeed but don't always aim too high.

I'll use Robo KQ as my example since that's the only one I participate in, regularly. I didn't really participated until I'd reached lvl 38+ because I find it a waste of scrolls, after having to die at least 10 times. But I have always wonder as to why robo [A] takes the longest to recruit while [B] & [C] are fast. Then I was told that [A] was full of low levels, so would you consider those who only join [B] & [C], selfish?

As far as I know, as long as the KQ have enough cleric, a good tank and decent amount of damage dealers, and team work, it would work. This is a game, and as long as you try your best in KQ, be proud.

Allissa im sorry but i didnt read your whole post :P (it was really long)
But i agree with what i read,
I think that its not lvl but maybe experience.
If you have a tank who does NOT know how to tank... bye bye mages xD
same with pullers and clerics. if they dont know what there doing then they wont do what they should hense them doing nothing.

just as an example of how lvl doesnt matter,
I was in GH KQ and we had hardly any time left before the last giant Graverobber and were about 1/4 away from the exit when we get the key,
a lvl 31 (i think it was that) runs back the way we came the LONG way
and loooonnng story short we run out of time right when he makes it to the gate costing us the KQ.
He was a noob, i mean the whole time he kept saying he was all that and was horrible at tanking (not using skill while fighting) but he was high lvl,
and low lvled people were much more of a help.
(m turning into a hypocrit this is pretty long)
Soo i think it all matters on if you know what to do.

Well, if you base things around circumstance, it's not really being selfish.

There are many instances in where KQ's will fail due to an insufficient group. Too many Clerics, Not enough damagers, not enough clerics, no tanks, etc. Also, due to a wide pool of people to enter KQs now, its really not being selfish at all to join a KQ at a low lvl, because if you don't, some other person will.

I agree that being a lower level means a minimal contribution, especially in Mini Dragon KQ, and you're a low lvl fighter. However, in the end, it can't truely be called selfish due to chance and the overall set up of Kindgom Quests. Although some classes are more useless in certain KQs at lower lvls, level limits were set for a reason.

I'm not quite sure if I even made sense to myself, so disregard this comment if you're all "huh? O_o"

Not necessarily.

A cleric of any level can be of use in a situation as you have mentioned. For example, a level 33 cleric can almost match a higher level cleric if they know what to do in a Robo KQ. Similarly, a mage that knows what to do and doesn't get him or herself killed can at least participate. They may miss more often or do less damage, but if they aren't some egoistical asshole or a complete idiot, they should be allowed to participate.

I do have to say, your post is amazingly perceptive. And no, I don't mean that in a sarcastic way - I do have to agree with you on every one of those points, including the last. Yes, I am selfish - both in Fiesta and in real life. But personally, I don't actually place any judgement on "selfish" by itself, since many of us (or at least me) live in capitialist societies which function because of selfishness. I guess my defense would be a distinction between selfishness that leads to a greater good and blind selfishness. In real life, someone who starts their own business is an example of the first - of course they want to make money, but in the process, they'll likely create more jobs and bolster the economy. Nothing bad with that selfishness. A theif, on the other hand, is an obvious example of blind selfishness - someone who ultimately hurts their whole society in the end. So, coming back to KQs, yes, I'll say again that I am selfish and I won't try not to be - but I will try to be selfish in a way that helps, or at least doesn't hurt, other people.

Anyway, thanks to all the responses so far - I love seeing everyone's perspective, even those that disagree with me. =D

WOW everyone have so much to say.. i'm proud to say i read about 95% of Allissa's post and totally agree.

The level limits are there for a reason, they've already stopped to lvl 1-32 from joining robo, isnt that good enough? (apparently not but i dont really have a problem with it)

But i guess the story changes a bit with Honeying KQ as there's only a limit of 10 people... but no one joins anyway, so you may as well hv some lower levels to help fill the gap.

Cant comment on the dragon KQ coz i cant get in yet ><

Anyway, I just wanna mention after reading undeadmith's post
@undeadmith It is normal that people only heal the tank and not their party members during KQ, party members should pots/stones themselves unless there's many spare clerics around. (a tank will need at least 3 clerics)

And there's no such thing as KSing in KQ... you're suppose to put your force together and kill mobs faster... so its nice u go and tank a mob thats not already being attacked, but its also OK to help kill other mobs, if a lot are already atking.

i think the difference we need to look at is the difference between just being a little selfish, and knowing how to get what you want (which will usually in the long run help a lot of the people that were mad at you to start with). and being completely self-centered. there is a very big difference between the two but I am not gonna go into it because I already made one really long post. :P

I recall typing up this nice well-formed post for this topic, but I can't find it...so I guess that means I got distracted and closed the window!! :p

So time for the quick and dirty method (because I still want to comment but I'm lazy):

Although a party of nothing but the base level character in a KQ has a much higher chance of failing, it doesn't mean that a KQ of nothing but the highest levels won't fail as well.

People get excited about seeing a new KQ. I know I do. New music and requirements and people. It's information overload for people their first time in a new KQ. The earlier you learn what to do, the better you can react when you're higher level doing it.

I hate leeches as much as the next person...putting people on auto follow and just going afk without saying anything =.= rude.

Since most quests at my level are bugged, I sometimes get bored grinding and pop into a KQ. It perks me up with the change of pace, and I'm usually pretty good at explaining the objectives to new visitors of the KQ.

:eek: Quick and dirty version was still long. SORRY!

I believe that levels only truely matter during the high lvl KQs. Not even Robo, but perhaps around Giant Honeying and Mini Dragon KQ.

For Giant Honeying KQ, I myself has only ever done this once. This is because I was never really fond of this one.

I can however, speak for Mini Dragon KQ, where levels truely do count, and is very obvious now. Mini Dragon KQ went through phases in terms of participation. The first Phase I believe was the best, and thats because it could only be accomplished through the cooperation of 2 guilds. And because only those 2 guilds had the only plays who could participate in said KQ. It promoted guild relations and such. A couple of phases later, it's come to a point where there's a larger pool of able players.

This is where the problem is at. Without specific positions filled, the entire KQ is bound to fail. This causes problems in 2 ways:

First, it makes it really obvious that low lvl players are really at a position for minimal contribution to the KQ, especially for fighters. Clerics/Archers are fine, for they can do their part at lower lvls. Due to this obviousness, some people tend to think negatively towards the low levels.

Second, those who knows that it'll surely fail will leave sometimes, leaving the ones left behind with a bitter taste towards the person "abandonning" them.

this brings up a really good point as well. KQs are supposed to be about team work. The only time that anyone other than the tank should even be getting hit is when there are multiple mobs. This happens quite a bit in slime and mara, mainly because people want to rush them. Which is all good and fine dont get me wrong, when it works. But if you are going to rush a KQ dont whine if you dont get healed, or you end up dying.

All of the KQs I have been in, the only time the main tank is the only one being healed is on a boss. from what I have seen in mara and GH so far, if you are not the main tank, and you are getting hit by a boss, you are doing something wrong. There is a blind spot on every boss I have encountered so far that you can stand in and keep from getting hit by the AOE. I dont know if this is by design or flaw...no clue, but its there.

KQs are like raids from EQ and WoW. Everyone does their job properly and things go smooth. First time I went to Molten Core playing WoW we died horribly cause no one knew what they were doing, and it took us about 5 hard raiding days to finish it. The last time I went before I quit, we cleared molten core in about 5 hours with 2 deaths. The teamwork was just that good.

Case in point, learn early what you need to do. Find out what your job is going to be, and just do it. Dont try and be a hero unless asked to. I dont care if clerics fight, as long as they heal. I dont mind if mages swing their wands or staves, as long as they nuke to. archers, fighters, your job is simple...attack....main tank yours is to, stand in front of mob, swing weapon, hit taunt, dont run out of SP for taunt :P. LOL sorry another long post.

i agree 110% seen it too many times in GH.

last time in GH KQ, a high-ish lvl fighter started a party, did a "sequential" allocation then set himself on following another party member and went AFK...

my party dug up the key.. and guess who's got it?!?!?

that dude... my only failed GH KQ....

but yeah that's probably not the point of the original post... but anyway XD

The maths behind KQ's
 

If you think about mathematically (dont quote me on this cause i didnt finish senior maths, but this is yr 11 math im talking about and i aced that XD) the KQ's are quite fair due to normal distribution. *pulls out maths text book and eats lunch while reading it* :P

ok now where was i? right, a simple explanation of normal distribution for you non-mathematical readers. *wishes she could draw a curve in the text box* this will be easiest to explain if you can imagine the data. so think of the slime KQ, the minimum lvl is 5 and max is 16. so the mean lvl is 10.5. 50% of the characters in the KQ should be above this level and 50% below. you're going to have to just trust me that my %'s are correct for this.

68% of the characters will be a 'normal' lvl (normal meaning the right level for the KQ) for the KQ and 27% will an 'abnormal' lvl (meaning slightly too high or too low level) for the KQ and 5% will an 'extreme' lvl (too high or too low lvl). so 34% of the characters will be in the 'normal' range but below the mean, and 34% above the mean lvl but still in the 'normal' range. 13.5% of the characters will be above normal lvl and 13.5% below normal. 2.5% will be an extremely high or extremely low lvl (like lvl 5 or 16).

this data can be repeated for the success rate of the KQ.
68% of the KQ's will finish in a normal time. (i cannot use a specific time as an example because i dont have an average finish time to use as a mean).
13.5% will finish in a good time.
13.5% will be praying to finish.
2.5% will fail miserably.
2.5% will set a record finish time.

As far as selfish people go:
68% of people will be indifferent with there actions.
13.5% of people will be good at what they do.
13.5% will be annoying in what they do.
2.5% will carry the team in a selfish bid to win the KQ on their own.
2.5% will sit at the start and selfishly leech the prize and exp.

I am not sure if this was explained well enough for you understand. but the point is: the KQ's are equal for the 2.5% of KQ's that you swear your head off cause of how bad it went, there will 2.5% of KQ's where you pop the cork off a celebratory champagne for how well it went.

Hope this has been helpful and not too long for you to read.

P.S. for all you people who want to bring in variables, i can guarantee that variable is on a normal distribution of how often it happens. But you can iron out those variables by increasing your sample size e.g. record 10,000 KQ's instead of telling me a record from just 1 KQ.

Don't be mean, don't be mean, don't be mean . . . >.>

Pulls out a gun and points it next to my head... OMG i hvnt heard of the word "normal distribution" since.......... 8 yrs ago.... (damn did i just reveal my age?)

Flame girl... i believe u had ur high school education in NSW???

nope, South Australia, and i must be 8 years younger than you :P

Ohh i just had a strange feeling that different state named "normal distribution" something different... keke

mind if i ask if u come from Adelaide or somewhere more out back?

Yep Adelaide, western suburbs ^^

Hmm that's why i hate partying with people i dont know...

last time at ZK... it was seq allocation and the ZK dropped a wand... so we went around asking who's got the wand coz we just wanna know the stat.. and no one owed up! it was quite pethetic... it just magically disappeared... but i mean.. wat can u do...

If i were u I wont pay her for it.. (unless u hv promised ur frd u'll get it back for him)... why give her easy profit...?

if you would like to submit to me records of 10,000 KQ's including the finish times, the lvls of the characters, the number of characters, the attitude of the characters, and so on and so forth. I would more than happily set in those numbers into a normal distribution for you. I do know my %'s are correct, and i was trying to make it easy for people who dont know anything about maths to understand. I did this by making it relevant, and tried to use imagery, to help readers visualise the data. I also included enough information so that people who do understand maths can see what im trying to say.

as for your interesting story, crime is everywhere :P

he obviously didnt study that maths subject at school.... but nvm~ i guess none of us play enough KQ to prove that to him... anyway

well it was only fair that they get the ring if u've already agreed to get the mace or hammer if it drops one.... its a bit like lottery when u party with people you dont know... if its not urs then its theirs...

I have attached the page of my text book in which i got my 'numbers' from. As you can see they are the same, and CORRECT. the only thing i changed was instead of the curve have 2 sections of '0.15%' and '2.35%' i made it one section of 2.5% because its what i was thaught in yr 11 (which i aced) and i didnt want to talk about anything i didnt understand. I dont understand what you mean by 'random numbers', the numbers i included are percentages and as you can see they are correct. I already explained the variables (or 'things that could effect the outcome of a kingdon quest') run on their own normal distribution of how probable they are (and i did say if you get 10,000 samples you will iron out the variables). The reason the percentages (or 'numbers') are all the same is because i gave the percentages of several different aspects of a KQ. So as you can see my 'numbers' are solid. Is there anything you would like to question?

I thought you may not be able to see the 'numbers' on the original image i posted so here is a close up of the 'numbers', so you can read that they arent random, and are solid.

-looks at that attachment-

AHHH KILL ME... too much memory coming back!!

Normal distribution more like probability... they're satistics for a mass number of samples... the more KQ u go into.. the more accurate those % will be...