Ian Thomlinson.
 

Has anyone else heard of this? it's horrible...

Poor man.

But then again, you obviously have never been in Russia.

Meh, its nothing new. Police brutality is everywhere, and I've seen worse. It was common in the area I lived in.

Some guy was pulled over at a gas station, he wasn't resisting at all, and the police slugged him and bashed his head into a car window. A cop hog tied this one guy he pulled over, but he was really heavy, and with the way the cops had him situated, he couldn't breathe. He kept crying out to them, telling them he couldn't breathe, but they wouldn't listen. He ended up sufficating to death.

There is a lot of corruption in the "law". And not everyone is going to be fair unfortunately, even with police. Obviously they were trying to contain people. That police officer probably wasn't paying much attention and since he was a civilian present at a protest, he just reacted instantly, and what he did wasn't too bad compared to what other cops have done.

Just because it's common doesnt make it better.

Violence is not relative. Nor is outrage, or populous rage.

Just saying, you can't stop it and I don't see what makes this one anymore special or different. I mean.. they're the law. The police are the enforcers. So, yeah. People are kind of stuck there. Its yet another unfortunate thing in this world that we can't control.

but we CAN. it requires hard worl and sacrifice, but we can CHANGE things. If 1/4 of a country stopped paying taxes, the government would be forced to it's knees. Many would have to go to jail, but it would be for a worthy cause. Henry David Thoreau.

If 1/4 of the country stopped paying taxes, school and city budgeting would but cut and the people would lose out.

They'd just cover up that stuff, or fire the person and eventually end up hiring another person who will do the same. Its not a government conspiracy.

No, it's not, but it's obviously wrong. People are becoming far too contented with the evil in the world. we need to change things. and it's possible. Eventually, at a point, the jails would be full, and the government would have no choice but to listen.

There will always be corruption and violence. No point in trying to stop it imo. Just let it run it's course.

Exactly. Much worse happens...

Yes, worse happens, but once more, violence is not relative. If brutality and violence happen, we should react with the utmost power. we cant sit idly by as murder goes on.

I don't see how that would work...

It rarely happens, and even rarely is it caught and dealt with. Its not like every cop is like that.

Just because something is wrong, does not mean it will, or can be stopped. Just got to take it one case at a time. There are far worse things going on in the world, and nothing is being done to stop it. Men have been sent to prison for years and years, in a living Hell, when it turns out they were innocent. They release men out of prison everyday who will turn around and do the same thing that got them in there. Is that fair? Nope, but its a common thing.

The world isn't rainbows and sunshine, nor will it ever be, or can it be. You can't have good without bad.

Of course not. im not saying go out and riot. but what about the ideals of John Locke? The government gets its power from us. not the other way around. WE have the power to change things. Have you heard of Thoreau's "Civil Disobediance"? many of the ideals i express are derived from his teachings..

And amongst the "us" are the people who go off claiming to be there for "us", thinking of "us" and has plans to make the world a better place for "us". Everyone in the governments system was once part of "us". Corruption will never die. Those with power become prone to it, very easily.

The former mayor of Detroit for instance...

What are you doing to your "utmost power," Jikanu?

What are you doing to change things?

Well, im kind of underaged to pay taxes, so that's obviously ruled out. im nothing to the government but an incubating egg; till i hatch, there's thousands to replace me.

However, i AM trying to spread the word about these kinds of things happening. Believe it or not, most people i've told this to around my age were shocked. my parents, not so much. that says alot, really.

Haha, wait, so when you're of tax paying age you'll protest against the government by evading taxes?

And they were probably shocked because they haven't heard of it. I'm just guessing, but I'd say your parents, unless severely cut off from the rest of the world, have heard of all of this many times. As opposed to kids, who usually don't read newspapers or news articles on the web.

Taxes don't go to just the government, military etc. It funds the schools, the city services, even many benefits.

If it weren't for tax payer money, my family would be on the streets right now.

^ im relying on the idea that the government would fumble and concede if they lost enough cash. i doubt it'd be a long-term thing. and hyper, i'll pay taxes as long as they go to programs that i support. if it's for an unjust war, and no one really relies on me, then i'll stop paying taxes for as long as i possibly can, and encourage others in the same position to follow my example. My dad, in fact, did just that, back in the 90's, till he got married and the IRS or something like that came and threatened to take 80% of his paycheck.

We'd go down with them, if not, first.

You can't control where your taxes go, but you can think that theres one huge bank for the government, you just deposited $1,000, and then the next day, a family is going to get $1,000 worth of food stamps, maybe your money didn't go directly to that, but it contributed.

The longest you can go without paying taxes if 4 years I believe.

Several things:

You say you doubt it'd be a long term thing but... you only pay taxes once a year ANYWAY. Long-term is relative but not only would you have to find enough people who would latch onto your idea so that it makes a dent, you'd have to do it for long enough so that the government runs out of money (which seems unlikely anyway since the government already spends more than it takes in every year anyway).

Not to mention the fact that the first programs to go would be stuff like early childhood education, environmental protection, etc. Stuff that, while not necessary, make the country just a little bit better.

And just think the precedent that this would set. If the government allowed so many people to not pay their taxes just because the people didn't like what the government was doing, then
the government wouldn't function right now.

Yosei covered my other point.

Perhaps i phrased that in the wrong way. i mean something i feel is at it's core morally wrong. like Thoreau, and the American-Mexican War, which was clearly morally wrong.

And im not saying that evil would be wiped out, just massive corruption that resulted in total abuses of power like in this case.


There ARE, however, programs where your money will go more directly to the people who need it. If you pay 1000 dollars to the gov, for example, i doubt more than 1-10 dollars of that will acctually go towards someone who needs it. The rest will go to the government, the unjust wars, the nuclear war programs, and the giant corporations that are in their pockets. Why not donate to charity programs that acctually make a difference?

Because you were talking about taxes.

You have to pay taxes. Its the law. And what does it matter where exactly your tax money goes? Like I said... it doesn't go directly anywhere, but it contributes. Just think about the programs that it'd be contributing to. For instance... unemployment. Many car factories are closing down and workers are going out of the job. They can apply for unemployment, where they get paid money every week from the government until they can find a job.

I don't know if you've even read my posts ._.

If it weren't for the government, my family would be out on the streets. Is the government so bad there?

The government has both of my parents on unemployment. They're getting food stamps, from the government, the kids get free lunches and other fee waivers, because of the government, who is paying for those things. The kids get Toys for Tots every year, because of the government and marines. I got to apply to college and take my SATs for free, because of the government. When a kid applies for their FAFSA to get financial aid from the government, their parents have to have paid their taxes. But its worth it, because they get to go to college!

Furthermore, do you really think the government would allow so many people not to pay their taxes? The government has more power now than before to seize upon your other property, take away privileges, etc.

I doubt Thoreau's civil disobedience would have worked in this era.

Was he even effective in his own time? (Rhetorical question alert)

Im not saying everything that they do is wrong, and it seems you didnt read my post. Im saying that if your money goes to, for example, waging war on a small country to take its land, and natural resources, and therefore hurt its people, yuou should keep the money you would spend on taxes and give it to a WORTHY cause, like charity that has the money go DIRECTLY to the families that need it. it seems you didnt read that part of my post :/

As long as the reason why you were refusing to pay taxes got across, the government would eventually have to buckle and give the people what they want.

But assuming it doesnt work, what form of peaceful protest would you reccomend?

You can give your money to charity all you want.

But do charity run public schools? Build roads? Provide healthcare? Provide unemployment? Fund research? Ensure national security? The list goes on.

Maybe some of them do. But not on the massive scale the U.S. government does.

There are plenty of ways to engage in peaceful protest. People do it all the time. Use the rights given to you in the Constitution (which do not include not paying your taxes).

Which ways are you suggesting? picket signs, and marches? those rarely do much, with a couple of exceptions which were due to fantastic leaders (such as martin luther king). The government doesnt care about what you think, as long as it has your money.

The government, and the IRS in particular, don't care about why you wouldn't be paying. If you've got assets enough to tax, they will seize them and take more than their cut. They will go have lunch, then do it again. They will sleep soundly at night.

But, be my guest. Then let us know what happens, if you're not living in a box.

*shrugs* i probably wont. im just trying to come out with ways to stand up against them in a way that'll get their attention. please, if you have any suggestions, i would appreciate them.

I don't really see what you're asking for when there isn't a well-defined answer to begin with and the answers that exist are around you already. Change (for better, for worse) happens every day whether you believe it or not.

If you want to find ways to "stand up," pick up a newspaper and see how other people have managed to do it.

The change isnt drastic though. perhaps a little difference in tax, a small little difference in how law enforcement acts, but never a war ending. never a really important difference.

Peaceful change is all about the increments. What you're wanting will require a full-scale, bloody revolution.

Not neccesarilly. what about the civil rights movement?

You might want to read a bit more about the civil rights movement if you don't think it was large scale and bloody.

It was large scale, but only groups like the black panthers were bloody. Im speaking of Dr. King's branch of it.

Because we can just ignore the parts that we don't like. Might as well say Torquemada was just misunderstood.

I digress, because I wasn't saying that the protesters themselves were violent. I said it was bloody. And it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Summer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississ...worker_murders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma,_...ights_movement

Do you need more? I know I'm using wiki, but feel free to go to the actual sources if the veracity is in doubt. I'm not doing primary research for you.

No, police were brutal as well. Recall the notorious method of blasting them with water?

Ahhh. i thought you were referring to the protesters, not the authorities. In that case, yes, i agree, though today that would stir up unwanted international attention.

Right, because we in the US really don't want any sort of negative international attention. We've carefully maintained our reputation around the world. Oh, wait...

Ah, good point... but it would be much more outrageous if we started doing it in our own country. Wrong, yes, but it's the truth.