Whats Ruining Society? [Wall of Text]
 

So my mom and I were talking about money and the economy, my family is having a hard time, but she'd confident we'll be fine. But when we think about it, we have a family of 7 that manages to live off of an income of 50k tops yearly. Not quite sure how much it is.. but we've always been okay, fine, content. We can't take vacations and such, but that's a privilege not a right. We laugh at some of the things people are complaining about lately.

We've watched shows on how to shop cheap and still look good, and they're like "This suit only costs $200 :love:" Amazing!! [/sarcasm]. And people are recently acting like thrift stores were just invented. Like they're the most amazing thing to come around, when my family has been shopping at them for years. Another lady on a news show was bragging that she can shop for a family of 4 and only spend $100. My mom can shop for a family of 7 for less.

Then we got to discussing about how ignorant people can be these days. We think the things that are ruining society is:

1. Materialism
2. Laziness
3. Selfishness

An example being... the iphone. I hate that thing. Its a bunch of crap put into one thing. Just another part of the miniaturization going on in the new millennium. You can watch TV on it! You can play games! You can read a book! You can get directions somewhere! Apparently you can check out your bank account! Oh yeah... you can call people on it too.

It's a frickin' PHONE! An expensive one at that. People have made such a big fuss over that thing. Where I lived, they had a live broadcast of its release, they were interviewing people standing in line at the apple store and cellphone stores waiting to buy it. The phone is $200 minimum at the moment... for the original. Then there's the cost of the plan, set up, fees, "apps", and other various charges. My dads friend watched a football game on his, and his bill was something like $1,500 that month. So that dudes probably spent over $2,000... for a phone. I have a simple LG, it was even free, came with the plan. All I had to do was pay the set up fees.

Why do people like the iphone so much? 1. its apple.. apple's awthum 2. Its little gadgets, its convenient 3. Its a "must have" item. I'm a firm believer of subliminal messaging, and I wouldn't be surprised if apple uses it to sell its products, such as the ipod. The rest of the world has an ipod, I must have one too! Why do you have to get an ipod when there's one with the same amount of space but half the price? Same with the iphone... its a phone, its intended for calling people. There's one sitting next to it in the store that works fine, has the same purpose, and half the price, probably even less, so why are you getting the iphone? Its got gadgets and its convenient! Why buy a book when you can read it on your iphone?

Little do you know.. you're putting a poor little book making company out of business, and putting hundreds/thousands of people out of a job, because the iphone is "eco friendly", you no longer need paper to read, and thus not as many trees are being cut down. But, little do people realize, the radiation from the phones are disturbing the bees, breaking up colonies, thus they aren't pollinating and dying out. Bee's are a vital part of nature, just like trees. How else will you get honey for your organic herbal tea Mr.Hippie?

And yet people complain about the economy, the environment, etc... and they still spent money on this crap.

Sorry for the long read. It's just been something I've been thinking about a lot, and a reason I really dislike society over-all these days, and specifically how Americans seem to be very gullible and vulnerable to these things. I'm looking for other peoples opinions.

Yeah! Srsly. I agree with you on like.. almost everything in there, haha.

Things are tight for my dad and brothers in Michigan too. But ya know.. Its Michigan >__>

1. Materialism
2. Laziness
3. Selfishness

Definitely. I think society are driven by people's desire. Some people's desire could obviously rule other some other peoples.. (like those big company CEOs that decided to pay themselves billions of bonus then collapse the economy)

As much of an Anti-Apple person that I am, I can't say that "Apple" is ruining the economy. In a way, Apple also have many many employees, and for each person that buys one of their products, they in turn keep someone's job in place.

I don't think people think about the amount of trees they have saved or killed when they buy an iPhone...

I gave it a sarcastic laugh when someone who lined up overnight for the release of iPhone said "IT'S THE BEST PIECE OF TECHNOLOGY EVER!" erm hello? The function on that phone has been around for ages.. just under a different company...

But I think it's fine for people to spend things on luxury when they can afford it. I think it's only natural that human would push for as much as they can afford to make themselves happy.

If people spend their month's dinner money on iPhone, that's going too far.. but if it's spare cash lying around, it's apparently contributing to our economy!

How is spending on expensive items ruining our society? If you've earned the money, it's your wish if you want to splurge or save...

Its a whole chain of things. It'd take a lot to explain.

But thats the mentality I'm talking about... I earned the money, so I should spend it.

My rant is more towards the people who do spend money because they have it, and will use good chunks of their money on whats basically... pointlessly expensive items. Such as the iphone and ipod (well the ipods not as bad, but the newer ones are pricey).

This rant wasn't directly at apple... its just an example.

My friend got his first credit card a few years ago. He went hog wild with it, didn't budget, didn't pay attention to his spending. He was the one with the job, he was the one with the money, he was the one with the credit card. He's do stuff for us, such as buying us little things here and there, picking up the bill at restaurants. He soon was $400 in debt. A lot for his age.

My mom got a $130 check this week as compensation for her foot. Does that mean she wants to spend it? She earned it... she deserves the money. Doesn't mean she's going to spend it? No. She could. She needs a new vacuum and could've used it to get professional hand-made shoes specifically for her feet.

But its not just about being able to spend the money. Its ridiculous standards. Why would someone want to spend so much on an item? That's like buying a $200 pair of pants when there's a $30 pair of pants next to it, they look the same, one just looks a little fancier and is by a bigger brand name.

I'm just saying it's their choice. A credit card isn't "earned" money. It's a type of loan. If you've earned money it's entirely your choice whether you want to buy a $200 phone or a $10 one. There's nothing "wrong" or "selfish" about it.

But that's just... human... You'll pay more for things that you like...

Of coz, people should only use "spare cash" for things they desire.. going into debt and spend the money that needs to be spent elsewhere is not appropriate... (like octomom spending her compensation for plastic surgery when there's 14 kids waiting to be fed..? it's all good if she doesnt have kids and only need to feed herself)

It's almost like asking people why should they spend money on an Internet game, it's just pixels and it doesnt give you anything IRL... coz people enjoy it and like it..

otherwise.. why work so hard to earn the money for? Does that mean we should downgrade ourselves to earn JUST enough money to feed ourselves and people taht depends on us? and not try get a bit more for things that we enjoy our lives with?

But if someone earns $300, needs $150 for food and goes and buy $200 pair of jeans JUST for their desire... this person will go into strive very soon...

Well, that person got what he wanted. It's like I always think. Take what you want, and pay for it.

then he's gonna starve himself and bet on the street coz he doesn't have the $50 to feed himself for 1/3 of the month?

you need to spend based on wat you earn...

The fact that he's starving is entirely his fault. He should have known the consequences when he bought the pants. If he put fancy pants higher on his priority list than food, then he got what he wanted.

I don't understand, you're saying it's OK for him to get wat he wants, but it's his fault for not being able to feed himself... How is that OK then?

He'll now have to borrow $50 from his friend / from the bank to feed himself...


OK Yosei, I think I understand your point... LOL When people think its OK to spend MORE than they could afford for useless luxuries.. get themselves into debt.. yup that's ruining the economic.. coz you will no longer be able to support yourself, and will start hving to rely on others... that's a debt to the society alright..

He knows he has 300 bucks. He knows he needs 150 bucks. But he still goes and spends 200 bucks on some pair of pants. That means he wants the pants more than food. He got what he wanted. If he wants pants and food, then tell him to work harder so he earns more.

Food is essential, the pair of pants isn't. If he can't weight out wat's a "must" and wats a "want" then it adds burden to himself and everything else thats get affected as a result of not feeding himself.

Yes, he KNOWS he's got $300, he knows he needs $150, that should meant that he KNOWS he can't afford those pants. NO you not suppose to get what you want if you can't afford it.

I want a Mansion but I cant afford it, does that mean I go put my hands up at an Auction anyway? But I can't afford it, but a millionaire can, by all means he can go live in that mansion while I stay in my little house.

If he really want those pants, he should earn more FIRST then buy later.

The fact that he cannot weigh what's more important is HIS fault. It's still entirely his choice as to what he wants to do with his money which he has earned. He just has to be prepared to met the consequences of his actions. That's basic responsibility. He hasn't done anything harmful to society by starving himself, and flaunting a new pair of jeans.

I think the scary thing is, there's not just one of these people in this world, there's a whole BUNCH of people that spends more than they could afford.

And when they all go borrow money from the money-hungry banks, and cant afford to repay the ever-going interest.. then the banks and financial institutes decide to go bust coz they can't get back all the money they lent out..

then people that saves with these bank suddenly lose their money...

Yup. There goes the economy.

Then it's the bank's fault for lending without seeing some collateral. It's more of irresponsible behaviour than irresponsible spending which causes all this.

Irresponsible spending IS irresponsible behaviour.. Spending is part of the behaviour.

Unfortunately that's how banks work nowadays. And can't blame the banks entirely, people should budget for themselves.

Just because the bank offer to lend you $10k it doesn't mean you HAVE to take it up. My credit card limit is $x, but it doesn't mean I need to spend ALL of the $x that was lent to me, because I only earn half of $x. I can't afford to repay them back.

Need to add #4 on Yosei's list..

1. Materialism
2. Laziness
3. Selfishness
4. Common Sense

The sort of Objectivist viewpoint you're holding, Vasu, is fine on paper, and on a basic level is probably the best view to hold overall. It's when the poor decisions of others out of your control begins to affect you where there's a problem. People live outside of their means, banks loan money to people that can't pay them back, then the bank goes under while holding the money of people with a good head on their shoulder. Suddenly, the person that has done nothing wrong has been affected by the poor choices of others.

See this is where you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying you can spend EARNED money in any way you see fit. You are talking about LOANED money. There's a world of difference. Anyways, I have to be off to school, I'll continue this debate in the evening.

EDIT: Hrae, what's fine on paper should work IRL if implemented correctly. Ciao now. Back in the evening.

But when people spend MORE than they've EARNT they money that they exceeded on will have to come from somewhere, and that's borrowed money.

On paper we can say "well he'll just have no food for 10 days" but that's not how reality works.


But going back to wat Yosei was saying, I think that the biggest culprit to this massive recession are from the people up high with LOTSA money and authority, pocketing it all and let it go bust...

People that's already struggling gets into a worst situation when people stop spending then losing their jobs etc...

Like back when I lived in VA.. we were eligible for Toys for Tots.

When I went to the building with my mom, there were a lot of moms in line. A lot of the moms did not look needy at all, in fact, a lot of them looked well to do, they had their nails, done, hair done, nice clothes, nice shoes. But apparently... they can't afford to get toys for their kids.

There's a lot of things that contribute to America's current status. Can't point a finger at one thing, its a big domino effect.

And watever happened to America had a flow on effect to the rest of the world...

Domino effect alright...

That might also be people getting more than what they need... (and in turn, makes other who IS in need, not get what they need...)

And like Katrina.. people were using their money for crappy material things when the money was to rebuild their life.

Some dude would rather have a nice watch than use it for the down payment on a new apartment.

Companies are also out sourcing, those are jobs Americans could have. Then more Americans would have more money, and then they'dactually have spare cash to spend, the companies would probably gain more money then. But, they'd have to pay Americans more, because they pay the people in India or w/e lower than the American minimum wage. But to develop and advertise these new gadgets and products, such as the iphone, that requires a lot of money. So they don't bother...

Socialism works on paper, too, but it doesn't account for how humans actually behave. IF everyone were responsible with their money AND made correct decisions, then yes, the method you described would be great. However, reality is a lot messier than absolute philosophies.

Game theory really comes into play, here. Look up altruism and how it relates to evolutionary stable strategies.

well, I guess I'll add my economic thought at this random hour where I should be sleeping.
To start off, the sub prime market was hit with predatory lenders who targeted people who could borrow loans with balloon payments or unfixed rates. Those people who lead their greed got the better of many banks who took that money and then sold it to business, corporations and countries. Those banks who packaged those mortgages knowingly added them to larger deals so they could get it off their hands and make the money they wanted.
This then turned to the buyers who thought they had secure money, but led to the people who defaulted and led to the housing crisis we are in now. From there this hits many countries who relied on the U.S. for their currency to stay strong, but too invested in the housing market and went bankrupt like Iceland. This comes full circle to where the government decides in order to help the banks who decided to sell those deals with the bailout. However, with the increase of printing of money, leading to inflation and even hyper inflation if the country decides to print way to much money. This money that is suppose to trickle back into society, is being held by businesses that helped to influence this current depression. There leads to the car dealers who are trying to obtain bailout money, which had they actually invested their time and money in the long run instead of the short run, would have actually worked on securing a better tomorrow decided to keep the short run game thanks to wall street bugging the hell out them to make the margins they needed to look good. These jobs which support the current economy would devastate many people who, if they were to lose their jobs would be out on the streets. Which comes back to the government to think where or not it should let the free market take over, or let socialism step into play and have government owned car companies, which in the end is worse off because they aren't run very efficiently. The government also has major stock share in the banks but have left the people who started the crisis in power.
Where do we get justice in order to remove the people who started this. How do we get rid of them? These people lacked the morals, ethics and basic common sense that lead us to this current affair and pitted it against their greed, lust and desire to make money.

But where does he get the money to eat for those 10 days? A loan? Why is he given a loan when he doesn't have any collateral to show for it?


Since when does "need" dictate who gets what? It's earning power that earns you money. I "need" food to live. So if I sit there and "need" it, I won't get it. I need to go "earn" it.

Objectivist economics support laissez-faire capitalism, or in other words say that the markets are evolutionarily stable, because left to themselves, they will prosper. Now I didn't really find anything to do with altruistic economics, so if you could give me a link, I would be much obliged.

He could very well be given a credit card, as his payslip will show that his income is greater than his "usual" expense, it's not entirely up to the people who lends him money that he will use it in appropriate discretion. And believe it or not, banks LIKE it that you get into debt becoz that means forever interest for them...

Or a nice friend will lend him some money so he can eat for the rest of the month.... on a simpler scale.

OK i've tried retyping this reply 3 times and i don't think i exactly know what you mean.

There are organisations out there that realise not everyone could EARN their own food, hence they reach into their bank account and lay out for some money/materials for those who cannot afford certain things. Whether it's things that keeps them alive (food) or things that enhance their lives (education).

So, I have my own job, I can afford my own NEEDS, should I still go and ask these generous people for THEIR money too? If I do, for every bit that I take, someone else who doesn't have a job / money will not get the support.

We both NEED the offer, but they need it more than I do... as I have other avenues to support my own need.

Not sure if that answers you, but that's wat my post meant.

Forever interest...from where? From where when he's already in debt?

Then it's the friend's fault for, in a way, supporting his irresponsible spending.

Shouldn't those organisations be checking into whether you really need it? Isn't that irresponsible of them?

In the ideal perfect world, yes. They should be checking every bit they could to ensure that only people that deserves gets it. But, reality is people will lie and dodge criterias to receive more than what they need. And often there's a limit to how far an organisation could go into checking you.

For example, people get study allowance for students that doesn't have an income. But I go and tutor my cousins and all my relative's kids, and i get cash. I probably don't "need" the government hand outs, but I still get it coz I fit their criteria and they can't check on me coz i get cash... kinda thing..



OK, that man with the pants. He earns $300. The bank can very well give him a credit card with $200 limit on it. He gets his pay check, spent $150 on food, and pays for the pants with his $200 limit. In the next month, he gets another $300, pays $150 for food, and he still owes the bank $200. He pays $150 off (because that's all he could afford) and in roll the interest for the $50 he still owes.

That is, provided that he doesn't spend any MORE luxuries. If he does, he rolls more interest through.

There's his debt and interest. Of coz, if he's really a plan ahead guy, he can pay it off in 3 months. BUT if things gets into a bigger scale like a mortgage or a car loan, the lump sum can get bigger and bigger easily.




And just for a fun fact, when I first applied for a credit card, the monthly limit they gave me was 4 times the amount I earn. I didn't even ask for that limit, they just said "here you go". They really don't think about how I was going to repay it coz that's how banks earn money. From interest.

Okay. I'm getting a little tired of the ideal world brush-offs. What is your suggestion then? That everybody be responsible? That nobody be materialistic? Even that happens only in an "ideal" world. I still maintain that the fact that banks give out loans so irresponsibly is NOT the man's fault. He's entitled to spend his money in any way he sees fit.

Everyone should be "responsible". People can be materialistic, within their own limits.

The ideal world is not real. The "bush offs" are just another way of saying "yes that is how it SHOULD work but that's not REALLY how it works."

Anyone is entitle to spend his money where he sees fit, I agree with you on that. But with the example I gave, the guy is spending MORE than he has earnt...

People need to be responsible for their own spending, the fact that someone is lending you more money than you can earn does not mean you can go and spend it all. (And there are many real people out there that doesn't understand that concept.)

And, blaming a bank isn't really gonna give that guy free food for the rest of the month, is it?

I don't think that anyone here is saying that you don't have the right to spend the money you earned in whatever way you want. The problem lies in spending money that you don't have for things you don't really need, such as for the aforementioned IPhone. People borrow more than they could realistically afford to pay back and the banks can write it off as profit in the books. This is what happens when the economy is coasting along.


We then hit a bumpy spot. Oil prices flucuate, housing prices collapse, banks start going under, car companys go hat in hand, noone can afford to pay back the sums they've borrowed. etc. ad nauseum.


There are things the way they should be, and there are things the ways they are. (clunky sentence) Banks should only be lending to those who can afford it, people should only borrow what they can afford to pay, we all should take into account real needs first, but that is not they way things are. In the end, we can only look back and say that this is the way things should have been, but much too late and after the fact.

^Typed out before Hessah's reply

Yeah you basically worded everything in my head lol. I suck at getting things into words D:

personally, i think it's people ruining society, though that's a bit of an oxy-moron... people these days have lost all tennants of respect for their fellow human beings. people look at others as faceless pawns in their own gain. there's exceptions, like most people here, but overall, i think it's greed and human nature ruining society right now. it's like that '70s movie, "Network"... at the end it proves that alot of the time people are looked at as dollar signs... i wont spoil it for people who havent seen it yet though.

When, exactly, has human society ever been this eglaitarian utopia of which you speak?

Well.. compared to things in the past, society isn't so bad. Children have been forced to work dangerous jobs, women and any minorities had almost no rights in most places. Religious discrimination, etc. It's still going on in some places, but in most developed countries, its generally gone.

But, some people are becoming careless. People in the past have lived and worked purely to survive. People these days live and work to be happy.

But you got to have moderation and responsibility.

It is people that makes up the society right? so it has to be people that's ruining it... this is more about what in human that's ruining it...


I guess in some places (say busy cities) people are being demanded MORE than they use to? With the new "contact me 24/7" technology, people don't get weekends no more.. they earn more money but they lose some sanity too..

and people become more sly to earn more with the least amount of efforts, and people become less friendly / giving in fear that they're being taken advantage of...

I guess to have a 'rich and loving' society is pretty much a fairy tale...

[i kept staring at yosei's kitty as i typed =.=]

i know it's never been that way... but it doesnt neccesarilly make it right ._.

but now, with the rise of corperations, it's seeming to get worse than ever... there was greed before, but it was at least split up so you could put a face behind it.

plus, there's no creativity anymore... people just ram a bunch of already used things into one small convinient package, and it sells automatically. there's no real innovation as of late... just convinience. im not dissing apple... im typing this on a mac. but im kinda wondering, why has innovation dropped so much? nowadays, sameness is everywhere you look. wanna make a buck on t.v.? make a reality show! wanna make some cash in the film industry? make a romantic comedy! wanna REALLY capitalize on those things? make a cheap video game out of it!

it's good to have those things... (except maybe the badly made games)... but a well-working society needs a bit of innovation to balance that out.

I'm not sure I understand you, you're saying we've stopped inventing as much as we used to or something?

Hmm I don't understand either.. I thought.. they were innovations already... most of the things we've got now (technology wise) were not around 20 years.. or even 10 years ago...

So you're hoping that we'll develop some sort of.. 1-man areoplane in place of cars now, coz... car isn't "new" anymore..?

Oh wait.. 1 man areophone already exist..

http://www.flyinglow.ca/flyinglow/2008/05/15/jetman.jpg

We need to come up with something new again..?

What exactly is "new"?