Lets talk about my favorite subject....
 

INFINITY

Althoug it is my favorit subject, I am more than willing to admit my limited knowledge of the subject as I am still in High School(a little early maby)

these are some of the things I know just by the powerful tool called the INTERNET...

firstly, infinity is not a number but a concept and therefore any and all information is never exactly true

EDIT: another thing, as you might expect...Greeks came up with this concept and actually found a way to solve functions with infinite quantities(a subject left for college professors)

Now that you mention it....

I've always wondered is the universe infinite or is there an end to it? If it ends what is at the end? Questions man may never know.

Nothing is infinite. There is an end to it somewhere, because there is a beginning.

Numbers are infinite.

Graphs of certain functions (Ie. 1/x) have infinite asymptotes.

If infinity didn't exist, then why did people create the concept?

EDIT: Just remembered another infinite concept: Human stupidity.

When people quit using numbers, they will end. When there are no more humans left, humans can no longer be stupid.

All those people that believe in the big bang theory should know that everything is always changing. Nothing stays the same, therefore nothing can be infinite.

your on the right track, while the universe is not infinite, it is expanding at an infinite rate....confusing I know, but think of it this way


big bang->starts off the expansion of the universe

when we stop to look at a certain point in time we can very well define the universe as constant, but if looked over time, its far from that

as for calculating the actual size of the universe, its up to complex physics and with physics follows math(tons of it!)


your right and wrong, because numbers can be accumulated an infinite number of times, your statement has some truth, but if you replace infinite in your sentence(if you can call it that:laugh:)
with the actual scientific definition, it would make absolutely no since(also there is a difference between scientific and linguistic definitions)

This reminds me too well of the Large Hadron Collider

:laugh::laugh:....your funny, but on to your question.....they create the concept to provide an answer to <things>(I cant find a better word srry) that are defined as infinite, before the concept, the <things> would be incomprehensable. But now with the concept of infinity, you can use the scientific method to work with these infinite <things>

I'm not asking to be flamed, but I don't think a random explosion just pops up and creates the universe, the stars, and the galaxies all alike. In some documentaries of the history of the Earth, they say the eath was created at the same time as the universe, and if infinity be true and the universe expands, wouldn't our galaxies expand and rip apart? Just a thought.

Nobody can calculate the rate of how universe grows/expands because as you said, it's expanding at an infinite rate. There would have to be some type of time paradox system that could freeze time, or atleast take us back to the beginning of the universe, in order to know whats causing the expansion to happen so fast, or why in human minds, Earth is the only place with current life...

(Off-topic-ish): People always think in the future theres gunna be conveyor belts to carry us everywhere, the free-will to go planet to planet paradise and fluctuate, flying cars, stores with mass quantities of things..They say once earth's resources run out, they'll just go find more on some other planet...but it's easier said than done.. I think people just expect to much, I mean..humans only use 10% of their brain..If every person used 100% we'd be dead.

(I think I just confused myself with this..)

I disagree.

The words that people use to describe numbers will end. People's use of numbers will end. But the "numbers," the concepts themselves will not end. If you have "two" lines, and you draw "two" more lines, then you most definitely have "four" lines there.

It doesn't matter what people call them. It doesn't even matter if there are any people here.

And what definition would that be?

It helps to be on the same page.

firstly, when time stops, nothing changes, proving that not everything is changing

I have to say your wrong, of course a lot of infinity is conceptual,make that all of it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The definition of a concept:a general notion or idea.

I dont mean to create an argument but I'll do it anyway(I'll try to refrain from involving the big bang since I've become irritated of seeing those heated arguments)

Before newton, gravity didn't exist. Just because it cant be proven yet, doesn't mean it doesnt exits(repetition is a good way to persuade people:laugh:)

How are you sure that when time stops, nothing changes? You have no solid proof of that. No human has experienced a "time-stopping" scenario. Even if they did, they wouldn't know, for all we know, time could be going on and off right now, and we don't even realise it.

Someone wanted a definition of infinity!

well lets give it to them, heres what I found:

1.unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time, etc.: the infinite nature of outer space

2.immeasurably great: an infinite capacity for forgiveness
(first two are linguistic definitions from Dictionary.com)

Ill get back to you on the scientific definitions, here are some usefull websites to back your own opinions:

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~kazad/r...y/infinity.htm

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...ifferent-sizes

http://www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/1993/PSCF3-93Hedman.html

http://scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/math/Infinity.html

I had to look at a lot more sites to grasp the idea, because most of these sites are above my comprehension

This ones for Luna

your absolutely right, but that doesnt necessarily disprove it does it!!!

(short and sweet, you gotta love it)

Just something I wanted to get out.....can you guys please stay as close to the topic as possible, and can someone contribute to my understanding of infinity and not just challenge the idea(I really like to debate the subject but I originally posted this thread to learn something)

First do not triple post, use the edit button.

Second, you say I am wrong, but yet you go on in other posts to say

So Luna asks you how do you know? and provides you with a good theory.

And your reply to her is, So you contradict yourself. How can you say I am werong, when I say that everything changes constantly, yet you cannnot prove that it does not?

The big bang is a theory, a concept... there's no "prove" about it yet (ie. it's not confirmed..) but this concept was derived from various research results which "suggest" that big bang may be the case. (something about the way rocks and stuff form @_@ that's beyond my brain capacity)

Maybe one day the galaxy will expand and rip apart... nothing says that it wont rip apart (i dont think)

in the scale of the universe.. we're only living in a split second of its life and its size...

So... with my limited knowledge.. I do believe in infinity.... even if / after our universe rips apart... time and space will still be on going...


EDIT: And yeah i didnt take it as flaming XD just discussion.. i'm sure no one is right or wrong.. coz if it was that easy, then we wouldnt need scientist LOL!

I think infinity exist, but it doesn't exist for everything. Why does infinity have to exist, or why does it have to not exist? Can't infinity exist in some areas, and not in others? Life isn't black and white, there's shades of grey <-- something I believe in myself.

If you can't give me a scientific definition, how can you say:

I think you need to be actually able to say what the actual scientific definition is before you can judge whether something makes sense or not.

What did you want to learn? You didn't post a question anywhere. You just said you wanted to talk about infinity and that's what we're doing. We're having a lively debate about infinity...

I think we should call this thread "LHC reloaded". xD

It was mentioned that the universe is expanding at an infinite rate. That is not what we currently believe. However, as of now, we're still unsure of the exact value. Observations suggest that the universe is expanding and this is how we came up with the expanding/contracting universe theory.

Latest progress on this matter is reported here.

As for infinity, it is essentially a creature that no one knows about. We necessitated the need for it because, like Ralath said, there are instances where we have to allow for it, like the set of numbers, for example. If we define a natural number such that there exists another natural number that is 1 more than it, then there has to be an infinite number of natural numbers, simply by using induction.

^ Oh so Infinity went from a theory, to a concept, to a creature? xD! Next it will be a plant <3

And thanks Spirit, I did think he was contradicting himself <3

@Hessah- You prove a good point, but to our current knowledge, rocks didn't come around until earth cooled from its "Fireball" state.

I guess Infinity is one of those questions that everyone wants to know,
but nobody has a good answer for it: such as "Why is the sky blue?" or "Why are we the only planet with life"

Oh well -shrug-

lol, "creature" is just an expression. Don't take it literally. I like your jokes sometimes but not this time, sorry.

I don't discuss infinity because I don't know much about it (even my maths lecturer admitted no one knew exactly what it is).

I only express my views and back them up with what I've learnt only to the topics I am more or less familiar with.

So here are they, what I know for sure:

Answers to the question you posed:

- Why is the sky blue?

The answer is that droplets of water vapour in the air can separate light into its component colours with blue being the most refracted, therefore its angle of refraction is the highest which allows it to reach our eyes. Therefore, we perceive the sky as blue.

To understand this, you need to know that light gets refracted when it travels from one medium to another, and its component wavelengths (which, in the visible spectrum, are the colours you see) all are "bent" at different angles, thus they are separated.

- Why is Earth the only planet with life?

How do you know? To make the claim that only life exists here, you have to show that life can't exist elsewhere in the entire universe (and please don't use contrapositive to rebut this point. you have to stick to your first hypothesis). Consider the number of galaxies. In each galaxy, look at the number of solar systems. In each solar system, look at the number of planets. Is it so small a probability that life exists selectively and solely on this planet? That's an extreme assumption and has no backing whatsoever. If life can thrive here, there is no reason why it can't in other places.

EDIT: typos everywhere. =.=

Well I meant that you wouldn't get a very good answer from someone whos never really thought about it. A random person on the street 99% of the time, won't be able to say what you just said lam.

As for the joke, that wasn't me, my sister died laughing because she thought it was funny... :goaway: so much for humor to run through the family.

lol

it's Lam, not Iam. btw. xD

I don't think time and space will exist after the universe goes (if it goes). Because, the universe is time and space. Some scientists say that science can't explain what was there before the Big Bang because there was nothing to apply their laws and theorems on. There weren't even any laws, because there was ...nothing. No time, no space, no probability, nothing.

sorry i got carried away with the subject....I confused myself too!

I'll have to retreat and improve my argument:ninja:

Also...... anything about infinity, whether its proving or disproving is by no means a fact! there are certain levels of truth behind it but all in all it can't be stated as a clean fact

I believe in infinity not as a concept but as an actuality. Infinity is that without begining nor end. It has no measure. The belief of the infinite was first thought of not in scientific terms but in religious terms. God was first described as one that had no begining and no end. God's love, power, knowledge, and understanding have all been described as having no measure.

The belief in infinity is even older than science itself. I for one believe in the infinite.

Isn't the concept of time there because we 'measure' it? So you can't exactly say that it did not exist before just because no one was there to record it.(of course you can't prove the opposite either) but that's just another though?

Everything is a theory (big bang, colours, etc) so take it as a grain of salt. Discussing it and getting other people's opinions and views will help to improve your argument in the future.

lol

I think I'll chime in one last time and leave this thread because the following is all I have to say about this matter.

To derail this thread a bit:

Time is the fourth dimension in 4D geometry. When we mention 3D, the 3 dimensions only involve "spatial", not "temporal" (which effects "movement over time"). So by describing an object in, say, an xyz coordinate system, you are only specifying where it is, not how and where it's moving. By including the time component in the description, you explicitly show its course of movement around the xyz coordinates over time. Some clinics now advertise that mothers-to-be can see their kids in 4D (it's 3D + time).

As such, if you have zero time or time is not described, you don't have movement and hence, anything that occurs afterward (namely, interaction with the environment).

Therefore, it is reasonable to think of "nothingness" before the Big Bang because time was thought to be at zero, and so nothing happened. Again, that's just maths. You may question how time started to tick, how "nothingness" came about, etc. but bear in mind that's not something we fully understand yet and at best, these are still speculative.

As for the expansion of the universe, we can mathematically show that it is most likely the case by using Einstein's theory of general relativity. So observations (whose accuracy, interestingly, will be improved with the latest equipment which reduces a lot of errors and assumptions made) and the maths (using general relativity, if it is true) underpin our belief to this date that the universe is currently expanding.

Back on topic:

"Infinity" is an integral part of mathematics and everything that employs maths (honestly, that's almost everything).

It is, to me, also commonsense to have the concept of "infinite": if we think of larger and larger without any imposed constraint, how large will it get? Of course it can't be measured because it's allowed to enlarge forever so it will be come extremely large (just like when you add 1000 to infinity, you get back infinity but you can't treat infinity as a number because you'll get the paradox* below). Hence, to describe that "extremely large", infinity is needed. I don't use "immeasurably large" or "immeasurably small" because it is subjected to scientific advances. For instance, anything that is in the order of 10^(-40), say, is immeasurably small to us because we don't have the equipment to do so.

*The paradox: let D be the infinity. We say that adding 1000 to infinity still gives infinity so mathematically, if infinity is some D, we have:

D + 1000 = D
or 1000 = 0 (by eliminating D on both sides).

That is nonsese. So infinity (called D here) is not a finite mathematical identity and so by putting it as a numerical term in an equation just doesn't make sense (you have to use limits instead)

Perhaps we live in a low energy universe, some of the things we are curious about can't be observed. For example, the two distinct forces in our world (weak force and electromagnetism), when evaluated mathematically in a higher energy universe, become one single force. This led particle physicists to believe that if we get the right ingredients (new and better theories, new discoveries?), the four fundamental forces of nature (weak force, strong force, electromagnetism and gravity) may become one at high energies as well (this is why String Theory and the like came to life as our latest effort to create a Grand Unification Theory).

So you don't have to believe in infinity because commonsense tells you it has to be there (recall "larger and larger without limit") but in terms of observation, it's just something we can't do in our limited lifespan or at least not with the current advancement anyway.

The future is an interesting destination for hopes and dreams, and if it does survive the madness and extreme stupidity of our time, things will become clearer for humankind.

EDIT: I hate typos =.=

Although this image refers to a different set of 4D system (where all four dimensions are spatial), it looks cool so I just post it here :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ell-simple.gif

thats a lot of stuff to digest.......amazingly complex if you look into the mechanics

That image is mind-blowing.

Wow lamb, I feel like I can stare at that pic for hours...

/hypnotised

Don't Die it Man ! It'll steal your soul D:

Ontopic:

Infinity is something the human brain cannot truely comprehend. We can say we understand infinity but we can't.
No human ming can understand the concept of something never ending or Never begining (eg. God always being there)
But proof that infinity is real is all around you.
For us to be here there must have been a begining, to create us. The big bang ? Maybe. but what was here before that, what caused the big bang and what caused the object that caused the big bang ?

So from this we can conclude:

Infinity is a proven concept that cannot be truely understood by the minds of any living being on this planet.

Logically everything has a start. But what started the universe ? and what started that ? and what started that ?


And also i have an answer to which came first, the chicken or the egg.
The answer is ofcourse the Egg.
If the Chicken came first it wouldnt be able to reproduce and would die out. The egg however could have twins inside which could then reproduce among themselves.
So logically (even though its Incest) the egg came first ^^ as to how to egg came to be there that is unanswerable.

Infinity as I now declare the concept to be, is a sideways 8.


I declare it because I'm super awesome, and no mod can stand up to the power of my awesomeness! MUAHAHAHA!!!



















:ninja: :Be careful of ninja text: :ninja:

I like Dragon's idea... wat caused the big bang... was the "universe" already there prior to big bang...

i've never thought of that.. always just "started" from big bang and believed the universe started revolving from that...

I guess i hvnt got much else to add except for I agree with Dragon XD

I think we live in a universe that undergoes endless i.e infinite cycles of expansion and contraction, Big Bangs, and Big Crunches.