No, my point is that you claim the universe is so complex that someone had to make it, but such a being would have to be incredibly complex itself, creating another infinite regression. And that brings us back to doe-oh-oh-oh. Doe, a deer, a female deer....


I'm sorry, birth defects are someone else's fault? What are you talking about?


*sigh* I believe that the big bang did happen. But I am not saying the singularity just popped there. I am saying I do not know. You are saying god did it, and that you do not know where god came from. Why are you adding an extra, unnecessary factor? As per Occam's razor, this should be shaved right out of the equation.


What isn't true? The equation thing? And lastly, define a "spiritual being".

Since he can do anything as well, he can make us listen even when we aren't "open" to it.

And I would like you to define being "open" too.

This is all starting to sound really familiar.

I guess it's unfortunate that we don't have any Muslim members that participate in this thread since they'll help broaden this topic even more and further the scope that is being considered. We will then have a chance to explore the identity of the Deity in each religion.

1) It wont create a black hole, a Black hole is when a star dies and collapses in on itself. The bible however says that God himself created Adam then took a Rib from him and made Eve, The God Particle Draws in the atoms around it to make Mass. SO that punches another hole in the story if it is ever proven.

There have already been 3 holes punched in the bible story, although Two are just theories, They probobly will be proven soon.

Don't bother, it's just "figurative".

i was referring to the equation in the first paragraph you quoted.

Being open, i guess, would be defined as quieting down everything around you, and just doing your best to feel him and what he wants you to do. then again, im not a priest or anything, so i dont know the church's doctrine.

A spirit is something that transcends the physical form. i think that perhaps what the other guy (i think it was Aiden who said it) said about it being made from pure energy may be accurate.

And no matter what, the physical thing had to be created by something, and for something to not have to be created by something else, it has to defy the laws of science. The only thing i can really guess could do that would be something that transcends the physical form, therefore ending the chain needed in the big bang. Therefore, any previous or subsequent universes that may or may not have collapsed on themselves resulting in another big bang would be what Occam's Razor shaved off, in theory. i havent done much research.. if you're ever in an area where the priests are more open minded, you should debate this with them, really.

as for birth defects, arent they sometimes caused by a problem durring the pregnancy, such as getting bumped into or drinking or something? and often even then it doesnt really result in insanity so much as mental handicaps, does it? isnt it more often than not emotional trauma? (im not a psychologist, i dont know, so please, if im wrong, explain how psychosis comes about)

Oh, okay. But that is the whole point of my argument. Complexity isn't a factor, so he can solve any equation. That implies that he cannot make an equation too complex for himself.


Like I said, he should be able to communicate with us regardless of whether or not we are open.


But something that is pure energy cannot be intelligent, and besides, "God made us in his image" didn't he?


You have to prove that "non-physical" beings (whatever they are, you cannot prove that they exist) do not require a creator, and can defy the laws of physics. And also if you cannot claim that "non-physical" puts it out of the bounds of physics, because you have claimed he is some sort of energy, which can be dealt with in physical terms. And you are also using the argument from personal incredulity here i.e "I cannot think of any other way this happened, therefore it's probably this one."


And sometimes, it's also just a genetic defect. A malfunction in the chain of evolution.

Well, that's just nature taking its course, then... but isnt it often times not a violent thing when it's a defect? isnt it usually more like a mental handicap then? im probably wrong, please correct me if i am.

no one knows the ESSENCE of God, so it's too hard for anyone to answer those questions, really. the only people who i can really think of who could are like, well educated priests, theologists, and the Pope... so im not the one to be asking, on that topic.

And if it's not a factor in the slightest, how can it really affect anything? that's like asking someone to make an algebra question without a variable...

perhaps he has an appearance, but not a deffinite physical form... kinda like gasses have no deffinite volume, but they're still there.

and he gives us free will, and doesnt want to force himself on us...

It doesn't matter what it usually is. If god is willing to sit back, relax, and watch the "free will" of others destroy a few, he is far from benevolent. Say he is a proponent of free will, fine. But he is not in the least bit benevolent.


Fine, but like I said, there is no one nearby who I can ask. Also, shouldn't you try to know what it is you are worshipping a devoting so much of your time to, rather than revelling in ignorance and "faith"?


Statement: Complexity is not a factor in the slightest.

Implication: God can solve an equation no matter how complex it is, because complexity is nothing to him.

Inference: God cannot make an equation too complex that even he cannot solve, because he'll end up solving it anyway.


That doesn't make sense. You either have a physical form, or you are "non-physical." And the gases thing is a false analogy. Gases can be condensed to liquids which then have a definite volume, so we can infer that they are there. Any way of doing so with a "non-physical" being?



And yet you claim that he is a personal god, i.e one who intervenes. Exactly how much free will did he give the Egyptian Pharaoh during the exodus? To all the first born children? To all the millions of people he has ordered murdered and raped, and pillaged? I think they want some free will too.

You're forgetting the difference between old and new testament... He had to be strict and imprint a powerful moral code on humanity. they didnt listen when he gave them love in the garden of Eden, so he had to show how powerful he was.

And i honestly havent read up enough on religion to know enough to answer your arguments accurately. But perhaps the insanity some are born with are part of his plan; some of the insane have done good things, like van gough.