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-   -   Deity Existence (http://www.fiestafan.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15388)

Vasu 04-16-2009 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manzcar (Post 323960)
So what you are saying is that this Question is not about God proving anything to you, but is about you proving to yourself that there is no God. You use the world’s limited knowledge and understanding of not only the physical and natural but also the spiritual and with this limited knowledge and understanding have concluded that no entity can be all powerful because they can not make a stone heavy enough that they are unable to lift it.

Does that about sum it up?
Yes, in effect though it does not have to be a stone. The essence of the point is that an omnipotent being should also have the power to limit itself, thereby making it non-omnipotent.


EDIT: Also, I do not see what physical, natural and "spiritual" knowledge I have applied here, I have applied simple logic.

Jikanu 04-16-2009 04:50 PM
i know im gonna take alot of heat for this, but it's true....

Logic doesnt solve everything.

Vasu 04-16-2009 04:53 PM
Such as?

And don't beat around the bush, reply directly to my point. For the sake of argument, let's assume that you're right, and logic doesn't solve everything. Exactly what is wrong with my statement?

Jikanu 04-16-2009 05:06 PM
im just saying there ARE things in the world pure logic cant solve. so many things are still mysteries to us and are unexplainable in terms of logic, at this point, at least. not just religion, that is, but in other places too.

And if the omnipotent being has the power to limit himself, does he not also the power to take off those limits also, therefore continuing to make him or her omnipotent?

Vasu 04-16-2009 05:08 PM
That just means we don't know enough about them. And you should really give some examples to be taken seriously.


Not when it isn't omnipotent any more. And it would be clearer if you explained using an example like the stone thing.

Jikanu 04-16-2009 05:17 PM
Ok, if you cut a stone in half, and reunite it, is it not still a complete stone?

and what about things that simply go unexplained? things we dont understand and have remained mysteries to us for long periods of time? what about simple things that effect every human being, such as love? rationality doesnt always work out.

Manzcar 04-16-2009 07:42 PM
What about the inability to change the future.

If you know the future and you try to change it than the future isn't what you know so there is no longer any reason to change it so therfor you didn't change it which means the future will happen just like you saw it but are unable to change it.

Ralath 04-16-2009 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manzcar (Post 323998)
What about the inability to change the future.

If you know the future and you try to change it than the future isn't what you know so there is no longer any reason to change it so therfor you didn't change it which means the future will happen just like you saw it but are unable to change it.
I'm pretty sure that's the argument for why God can't be both omnipotent and omniscient at the same time. Thanks for proving the point.

Manzcar 04-16-2009 07:52 PM
How does knowing the future and not changing it stop you from knowing the future.

Ralath 04-16-2009 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manzcar (Post 324004)
How does knowing the future and not changing it stop you from knowing the future.
It doesn't. But it's not just about all-knowing. It's also all-powerful. By themselves, the words work. You can be omniscient. You can be omnipotent. But you can't be both omniscient and omnipotent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manzcar (Post 323998)
What about the inability to change the future?

If you know the future and you try to change it, then the future isn't what you know so there is no longer any reason to change it so therefore you didn't change it which means the future will happen just like you saw it but are unable to change it.
Lots of words up there that clash with the idea of omnipotence/omniscient.


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