..

I know Spirit already said it but just in case anyone has missed it:

And:

Everyone got it?

No?

This is NOT about AD's banning. Allow me to clarify one last time if anyone is unclear:

AD's banning was NOT due to the fact she name names. No, she did NOT get temp banned for that. She only received the temp ban when she spammed duplicate threads on the same thing. She did not even receive an infraction for naming names in the first place - only a mere warning. The ban was resulted from the spamming of the threads, NOT the naming name issue.

Again: This thread is about the discussion of the rules - not the banning, nor personal battles. Take those to PM's please - we do not need to see it.

Thank you to those who are staying on topic. And thank you to those who will cooperate onwards from now - which I'm sure would be everyone, right?

But the thing is, I could most likely figure it out in two minutes of being with that person in the KQ. Having their name earlier would really only provide me with saving a few minutes. There are other examples of a person being 'clearly' bad, but views on what's bad and what's okay is subjective too. It really boils down to how many people are interested in knowing names, and how many people aren't. It's important people consider everything in making their decision though. It's hard to justify the real con's and the real pro's, and that's what we're doing at the moment. I'm sorry to walk all over your argument like that, but I am against naming individuals in a section devoted to rant. As for cases where naming was censored outside the All the Rage forums, I don't know about how just they are. I think that should be considered too.

I'd also like to remind everyone of Blaaaaaaaaah's post (paragraph four), which provides an example of how screenshots can potentially mislead. You can't parade them as solid evidence if there is potential for them to be misused.

Hessah's mention of Falcomist's screenshots and the "real" story are different in their nature completely. The screenshots singles out Falcomist as the guilty, word for word says he isn't the only culprit.

What I'm trying to say is that screenshots are still subjective evidence in a sense, as they can be taken out of context, much like word of mouth. Whilst it is harder to remove them from their context compared to verbal appeals, it is still possible. We shouldn't post names of people if there is a chance that they are being unfairly judged.

THOUGH there are cases where multiple screenshots will provide enough evidence (scammer, KQ ruiners, PVP abusers), there is still another context of interest.
In the case of KQ and PVP abusers, if it's their first infringement, should they be forever judged for it? How severe is KQ ruining, scamming, PVP abusing to all of us as individuals? I don't find scamming a serious issue, people put themselves in these situations from their own cause (greed, desperation, mislaid trust).
KQ ruining can also be mislead. I've suicided KQ's to meet a friend earlier. Some may argue that that is a poor justification of ruining a KQ, but put yourself in my shoes, in my real life and I ask would you have done the same?
PVP ruining has another side to it too. I've seen people killing relentlessly in there, making it perhaps no fun. But how can we call that bad when the PVP zone really has no properly established, properly enforced rules? Can we call the rules people create for themselves law? If someone were to come into the battlegrounds for example - a good example of PVP - and claim a "room" by killing other people, how many would argue it was justified? How many would argue it wasn't? I believe a thread in all the rage was made specifically for this debate, and the verdict was split in the middle.

In my opinion, even the most prime examples of 'crimes' against the community have two sides to them, both possibly as just as the other.

Whilst my above examples are not strong ones, that is purely the point. There will be times where people will provide screenshots as evidence, provide their side of the story and leave us to judge. Is it adequate evidence to turn their claims into real fact though? I don't believe it is. Screenshots can prove just as subjective as written statement. Either can be taken out of context, and it's why I believe allowing the naming of names' can potentially lead to misaccusations that outweigh the benefits of freedom of speech.

I just have to ask, why is it soooooooooo important to name names? Why is it such a needed and wanted thing. Does it make people feel better to name names? To put someones reputation on the line. To use the facts as they see them to get their point accross without the other person having a say in the matter.

This reminds me of my children, all 10 and under, arguing. If I listen to only one side I get a point of view that the person I am talking to at that moment. In their opinion the other child was completely out of line and deserves to be punished. But I have to sit everyone down and find the real truth. And the truth is not really found out without getting the whole story.

Take for instance the "i got scammed by person X for enhancing my weapon" scenario.

If you get the other side of the story you might find out that the enhancer told the person that they will try to enhance for a certain price but there is no guarantee that they can get the job done. The weapon breaks and the enhancer tells the person that it broke and they are sorry but that is life.

Now the person who lost their weapon comes on here and puts up the "i got scammed by person X for enhancing my weapon" and i have proof. The post screenies of giving the enhancer the weapon but they state "I never got it back and he promised i would have a +9 weapon. They lied and are scamming people. Don't trust person X they are a liar and a cheater"

So you obviously only get the one side and you can only believe that side of the story. Now the thread gets around and everyone now believes person X is a liar and a cheater. Person X's guild kicks him out, no one will party, buy, or sell to person X because they are a liar and a cheater.

Yes this is an extreme case, but it is possible just because you can get one side of a story and it will be believable.

All I have heard from those that oppose the rule is that everyone should have the right to name names. That it is a freedom of speach thing (ever heard of slander an lible law suits).

No one has stated what does the rule change accomplish? How does this community benefit from it? How does it make this a better place to be? How does it help me as a player?

Again it brings up the question why is this rule change soooooo important?

Bumped for Righty's benefit.

I do know there was a massive blow-up at Spam Central though. Still don't quite understand the reasons but I'm sure Righty can explain.

Yar, ty ralath :3 Its just been a while since I was active there xD

I really think how Flyffworld operates is irrelevant to how we want FF to be run. They're entirely two different forums. You could claim that Flyff's system has worked for them, but how do you measure how well something functions?

In my opinion the only real thing we should work from is FF itself. If we were to subvert FF's system to another forums', then we defeat the purpose of FF as its' own forum.

Well, even I think screenshots are unreliable. If people really want to know who the scammer/KQ ruiner/botter or whatever it was so they can "keep an eye out for them", then they can just PM the thread starter. No need to make the name public.

There was an incident about a month ago, in whch while I was lagging, I accidentally trained monsters onto a party in which there was another member of these forums. That guy could have easily taken screenshots, posted them here, revealed my name, and made the whole forum "blacklist" me. But I apologised in the forums, told him it was a mistake, and he accepted. Even if I hadn't apologised, and if he had revealed my name, my rep on the entire game would be judged by that one single mistake. Is that fair? I think not.

Like someone said, I don't remember who...but it was in this thread... All The Rage is a vent forum, not a courtroom. Just release your steam there, don't try to accuse someone else. If someone else feels like they want to know who it was, then they can PM the thread starter like I mentioned...no need to go public.

After some more discussions about the no naming issue for All the Rage rule, we have decided that the rule shall remain the same. Naming is not allowed in this section, but there is an exception for scammers and hackers providing that you have screenshots as a proof.

However, names are to remain anonymous for threads ranting about bad in game experience, behaviours of other people in game, and so on. We have discussed about the use of screenshots for this too, but, screenshots relating to these issues can be easily misinterpreted and will potentially be unfair for the mentioned party.

The aim of this section is to let you release your anger and frustration from the game and complain about it here. This can easily be done without mentioning the person's/people's names. Naming people may help others "watch out" for themselves, but it will not truly help you if you do not understand the actual situation and circumstances.

Thank you.