"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matt 5:17-18

So I guess the coming of Jesus doesn't mean you can forget about the old testament?

<3


This is the most cordial and non-argumentative God-existence thread that I've ever seen. Someone needs to bat for the other side. :angel:

I would explain it, but the wiki does a nice job of it. It's the theological concept of the New Covenant.

Heh, I'm not sure about that, I'm pretty intolerant about religious people who try to shove their beliefs in my face (of course, an argument like this doesn't count), in politics, or in my daily life. Anywhere else, you can be whatever you want. ;D

EDIT: @Hrae, I guess that's one more contradiction to add to the list, unless I got the wiki wrong.

The universe COULD have been created by using scientific means, But if you think about it, The universe is vast, And infinite, Could there be a possibility that God (?) had put more races into existence before us? Maybe we are just one in a line of many planets that he has made, Why else would we be the only living things in a giant infinite universe?

How do you know we are the only living things in the universe. You've answered your question in your own post. The universe is vast and infinite as you said. We simply have not managed to discover other life, but it could be that there is, and it is very probable that there is, life in other planets. It's pretty self-important to assume otherwise.

The point i was aiming for came out sounding wrong, I meant to say that The universe could very well have more life, And as far as we know, It DOES, So why would any God (?) Create an infinite universe, And put only us in it?

We aren't alone.

But i guess some people might dissagree.

sorry to sound like a total theology noob, but i dont really understand what you mean by personal and impersonal... does it mean one who intervenes or not? that seems to be what it means from what i looked up...

anyway, all i know is that im Catholic, and i feel there's some relatively decent evidence to support religion, such as the "Our Lady of Guadalupe" eyes... but that's just my belief. i'm not gonna force anyone into my religion, nor do i detest those who don't agree. everyone has their own beliefs, and we all have about the same % of a chance of getting it right.

Correct.

You'll have to give me some more info on the Lady of Guadalupe. From what I read in the wiki, it's just a picture with a story behind it. (Yes, I did read about the bomb blast and the disintegration thing, but that's just the argument from incomplete destruction). Also, why don't you try arguing some or all of the points I have made in this thread, instead of just stating your beliefs?

Well, basically, what makes it miraculous is the fact that there are like, extremely tiny pictures of the scene Juan Diego himself might've seen when he was revealing the picture on his clothes. there's the bishop, and everyone else that was there, and they're so tiny that no human being could've painted them.

and, as for solid evidence for believing... first of all, when you go into adoration, (praying in the presence of a consecrated host; basically, spiritually, in the presence of Jesus) you get this really strange, emotional feeling. i know that's not so solid, but it's true, and emotions, in my belief, at least, arent scientifically explainable all the time.

Plus, if you think about it, everything had to start with something. Even the big bang had to be caused by SOMETHING.

And alot of what's in the bible makes sense. i mean, the old testament was quite cruel, obviously, but you have to take the times into consideration as well. Plus, later, in the new testament, it was all nullified by Jesus as he replaced the angry penalties with laws of forgiveness.

Have you ever heard of rice writing? I suggest you look it up. If people can write that small, then they can draw that small.

I'm sorry for being so blunt here, but when you have sex and have an orgasm, you also get a nice happy feeling. That's scientifically explainable. When you win a game that you played well in, you get a happy feeling. That's scientifically explainable too.

The only reason you feel happy worshipping Jesus is because you believe in a false tenet. You believe that you will be forgiven for your sins, however horrible they may be. Who wouldn't want that? You believe that even after you die, there's a loving father figure willing to take you in to his family, and shower you with love and give you eternal happiness. That is so nice. Even I would like to believe in that. But the point is, there is no proof for it, and being a rational man, I will not believe it how much ever I want to.

And that SOMETHING in turn had to be caused by something. Turtles all the way down. I have already dealt with this in my first meaningful post in the thread, have you read it?

It makes sense? Great! Use it as a code of morality, fine. Use it to help you make moral decisions, fine. But believe in a sky wizard? Why? About the loving Jesus and OT, read that para about wishful thinking.

I beg to differ.

1. The images are like, microscopic.

2. That's because of nature though. Everything you just explained goes back to our basest instincts. When you win a game, you're the alpha male or female. you feel on top of it all. Just like true love, (not lust), this is something quite different. it's not a simple feeling of "oh, joy, peace". it's quite strange, and unexplainable. Honestly, you wouldnt understand if you havent experienced it

3. I'm sorry, but "sky wizard" is FAR overly-simplified. he's not some kind of conjurer; by posting that, you're bringing the argument to a far lower level. According to Christianity, He is far far more than a sky wizard. You're putting it in a simplified way to make your point, i understand that, but it's also quite innaccurate.

Honestly, Mankind will never get through this argument. You'll never know till death. I honestly doubt we have the mental capacity to understand where we came from, whether it be a random release of energy an all-powerful God. Just as animals dont in the slightest way understand us, we might never completely understand God, the universe, or anything.

So is the writing.

I already told you why you like believing it. You feel peaceful because you know you're not going to be put to task for all your misdeeds. Hell, I felt so liberated once I decided I was an atheist too, and I can just as easily say that I felt the kind of joy you described.

So go ahead, define god.

The point is to try. When I find a gap in my knowledge, I look for a good, rational way to fill it. I don't jump up and say "goddidit!" What made the universe? We don't know. "goddidit!" Who drew that painting you were talking about, in such a microscopic way? We don't know. "goddidit!" What causes eclipses? This also used to be "goddidit" till a scientific explanation was found. Similarly, answers will be found for unanswered questions, and it doesn't help to fill up all the gaps in our knowledge with an omnipotent, omniscient (which are incompatible BTW, you really should address some of the points I brought up earlier in the thread) being.

1. the writing requires specific tools, and alot of practice. It's an artform, not something you can just pick up and do.

2. ...i just SAID it's not a joy, peace feeling.

It's an impossible feeling to understand without feeling it. it's far too hard to explain... it's all the emotions in one. sorrow. pain. happiness. joy. all of it. you cant summarize it in any which way. it's all of them, yet none of them.

3. Honestly, he's undefinable. But defining him as a sky wizard is also discluding all he did for mankind, according to Christianity. you simplify it to belittle the idea and to make a point, (or so it seems; if not, please correct me) but a "sky wizard" wouldnt feel the need to sacrifice himself in one of the the most painful ways imaginable.

4. Science could also be defined as an attempt to see how God does things. How do you know that physics, biology, etc. arent just God's cookbook (to put it basically)?

And honestly, on that note, how is your theory any more plausible? i mean, how is the thought of an explosion coming out of nowhere and creating anything make any more sense than God?

Science, according to you, can explain almost everything. So use it to tell me how it's possible for the big bang to have occured from out of nowhere.

He sacrificed Himself to Himself to protect us from Himself with the full knowledge He would not cease to be. Color me not impressed.

Practice.

Let me quote Homer Simpson here: You take forever to say nothing.

And this is the biggest flaw in your argument. You don't even know what it is that you claim we should all be worshipping.

Why don't you tell me why he decided to sacrifice himself? He's omnipotent, so he could surely have saved all our souls by snapping his fingers. There was no need to crucify his son.

Because there is no need to think that they are. How do you know the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist?

Atleast you've admitted your theory isn't plausible. You say that a god appeared out of nowhere and created the universe within 6 days, 5000 years ago. I say, I do not know how the universe was created, and that your idea is frankly ridiculous. I could just as easily say that the FSM created the universe with his noodly appendage, or that Invisible Pink Unicorns pranced about in a circle and locked horns to provide enough energy for the big bang to occur, and you cannot disprove me.

Plausible, maybe not, but still possible. The 6 days could be a metaphore; who says how long a day is for him? it could be a billion years for us.

As for hrae, it still required an unbelievable amount of suffering. he refused to take anything to dull the pain, though, as evidenced by refusing to take wine spiked with myrrh, and accepted the task before him, KNOWING what every whiplash was going to feel like.

And once again, i have no disrespect towards your beliefs and i ask you to show respect towards mine.

As for practice, Juan Diego had no previous practice in that art, to my knowlege; i doubt he was very rich and had time for such amusements.

This is so amazingly common. The parts of the Bible that aren't explainable, or outright impossible are metaphors.

You haven't answered my question. If God is omnipotent, he didn't need to have his son die in order to absolve us of our sins. He could just say: Hey, presto!

I am asking the reason for your beliefs, You have avoided the point so far. You have avoided countering any argument of mine which is difficult to reply to. You have provided us with no reason to think that your belief is rational, and you want us to respect it.

If not him, someone else stepped in and drew it. What's the big difference?

The reason? feeling. emotion. i know it's not scientifically or politically correct, but i cant help but feel that we're not all that's there.

And who's to say God doesnt feel the need to abide by his own rules to set an example for us? he knew a sacrifice was needed to be made to repent for sins, so he made the ultimate one.

plus, perhaps it's all part of a beautiful plan; there's so many parallels between the new testament and old testament things; abraham almost sacrificed his son, due to God's request, and God sacrificed his own son to forgive us of our sins.

As far as "not probable, but possible..." that could apply to anything. ANYthing is possible. That way lies madness. We, as humans, are probability machines. We operate on the idea that what we see is probably true, especially if it can be repeated by other sources or borne out by other forms of evidence. Granted, there are times where something improbable has happened that has to be acknowledged on the sheer amount of evidence presented. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The concept that ANYthing is possible and thus worthy of belief puts your thoughts on par with Last Tuesday-ism, the belief that the entire universe was created Last Tuesday, except that we've all been given thoughts and memories to make us think that the universe is much older. This way lies madness.

That whole "respect my beliefs" canard really doesn't fly, either. Delusional thinking should be shown for what it is. Would you respect someone that believed that invisible fairies lived in his garage? Of course you wouldn't, and if you say you will you're either a fool or a liar.

I guess I could address Christianity specifically, now. The fact that the physical manifestation of a deity decided to have itself tortured should show you the deranged thinking behind the "miracle" of the religion. You have to ask yourself...why did it decide to submit to the torture and pain? Because those are the rules set up BY THE DEITY ITSELF! Yahweh, which is of course the same as Jesus (2/3s of the "Trinity"...monotheism? Yeah, right), said that a sacrifice must be made. He sacrificed himself to himself because of rules created by himself. I can't tell if its sadistic or masochistic, but the logic certainly is tortured.

He made rules for us and lived by them himself. Is that "Sadistic"?

Yes, because the rules are capricious at best and vile at the worst. They certainly don't jive with any sort of merciful deity.

Meh. i beg to differ. i think of it as an act of mercy on us. he could've let our sorry asses burn in hell if he wanted to, if you believe in the religion

The hell that he created.

to punish an angel who attempted to overthrow him. because he created us.

What you said earlier still doesn't answer my question. Being omnipotent, god could have instilled in all our minds a deep sense of regret for the sins we have done, and forgiven us all. There was no need to do a sacrifice. Let me bring up all the points I've made in this thread so far, and see how you respond to them.

• The burden of proof lies with the person who proposes a theory.
  
  
• If everything needs a creator, then so does God. Infinite regression
  
  
• There are those who believe that the universe is so complex, that someone absolutely must have turned all the dials, manipulated the figures, and therefore designed it this way. Point one; a designer is not necessary, natural selection will suffice. Point two; exactly how complex would a god need to be to do this? Therefore creating another infinite regression.
  
  
• There are so many religions, and each is just as difficult to prove/disprove. What is your explanation for picking yours, and dismissing the rest?
  
  Quote:

  Originally Posted by Stephen Henry Roberts I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

  
  
• Absolute omnipotence is impossible.
  
  
• Omniscience and omnipotence are incompatible.
  
  
• Religion/belief in god are not required to lead a moral life.
  
  
• While it is impossible to wholly disprove the existence of any god, it is more than possible to deal with the probability of such a being's existence, and the odds do not sway god's way.

There are probably more, but this are the ones I want your input on.

Seems like he could have seen that one coming, being omnipotent and all. I guess his creations were flawed. Doesn't say much for the creator, though.

But, hey, I guess since he has hell laying around, he shouldn't let it go to waste. He'll just use it for the people that act in a manner consistent with, well, how he created them. Sounds like a real swell guy.

he gives us all a chance with free will, hrae. Angels included. and hell wasnt just lying around. he created it for that purpose

So he creates us in a way that we all automatically gravitate towards things that he does not want us to do, and then lets us burn forever for doing it. It sounds like putting poisoned cheese right in front of a mouse. Hey, the mouse has a choice. It ain't my fault.

Yet it is said that an all-powerful and all-knowing being has a plan for each of us. That doesn't exactly jibe well with the concept of free will.

i never said that o-o

He makes us innocent. it's society that corrupts us. and the things that are immoral usually cause harm to society; being promiscuous leads to std's. murder is obvious. etc.

he has a plan, it's up to us to follow it

Does he? As a Catholic, I would have thought you would be familiar with the concept of Original Sin.

Of course, we have original sin, but we also are born as innocent beings; Ever hear of when Jesus said "come to me as children do"?

If he makes us innnocent, then why aren't we all born in the garden of Eden with fig leaves covering our privates?

EDIT: Sorry I was late.

EDIT 2: So we're innocent, but we're sinful?

no. we're innocent at heart, but choices bring you to sinhood; it's instant pleasure vs. longlasting happiness; a party mentality (i.e. do whatever you want and die out quickly) vs. a more long lasting one

So we have no original sin?

i was addressing the sin we have from choice.

Original sin is inherent; it's something we're born with, not a choice; it's a sin that can be easily purged.

From then on out, however, children are innocent. they're open to God and have no evil in their hearts.

EDIT: are you well versed with the Garden of Eden? People were completely innocent and riteous until corrupted by satan, causing a chain reaction in which society became corrupt. it allowed sin to enter the world. Therefore, the assumption that we are born without any intent of harming anyone isnt theologically implausible.

You know, something about this original sin bothers me. Why is it that I carry the sin of someone else?

EDIT: Be back tomorrow.

It's because our ancestors commited sins, apparently. not everyone accepts that as doctrine. im not extremely well versed on original sin, honestly. However, according to wikipedia, Catholicism regards it as "the general condition of lack of holiness". So basically, we're born unholy, but innocent, none the less.

One mistake, And humanity got f00ked in the arse.

They would never had done it if god had not singled it out "Don't eat THAT PARTICULAR FRUIT!"

Ahh, but now we have to WORK to get somewhere in life. Too bad.