Fiesta Fan Forums - Strength as a stat, fails.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chinhchinh (Post 10229)

Full anything fails, though that makes me a hypocrite for being a full SPR Fighter.

Full SPR fighter?

Never seen that before...does it work? Lol.

I would imagine it is really since you can't really go wrong with a fighter

1.Str= too low of damage bonus
2. 3nd Useless unless your using a shiled
3. Dex- we really don't need this THAT much for aim. I haven't seen anyone perfom a viable evasion warrior build.

Spr helps compensate for alot
1. helps compensate the fighters main weakness, Low magical defense
2. The critical rate increase is actually very high, comebine this with an axe and you'll crit VERY hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehfusion (Post 10272)

I should get it to the nearest multiple of 5 for bonus damage

i think, this wont work. since you get STR every level automatically, you will draft away from that point and get to the next multiple of 5 soon :)

as a cleric, IMO, we benefit more from SPR
the ammount of SP we have does only matter when we use an SP stone. the more max sp, the more it recovers. not that impotant, may save some cash but thats all
magic def, yes please. mages still hurt a lot :)
crits, add to your dmg. not as frequently as some fixed points, but it does nonetheless. still, im pretty sure you get more dmg from the str bonus.
my build is 2-3end:1spr btw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyoven (Post 10295)

Clerics benifit more from Str then SPR...because of divinity enough said lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynamics (Post 10129)

Pure strength fails, and I'm quite sick and tired of hearing how 'amazing' it is from fighters or clerics who refuse to heal/tank in KQ's simply because they believe they're doing the best damage. For starters, I don't know where they get these assumptions from, but a 2x full strength fighter or cleric will only deal 20 something more damage then any build that doesn't invest in strength at all. Strength only adds ONE damage per point as of now, and that just seems too insignificant to pass up survivability/spell spamming for. This is my opinion and I apologise in advance to those I may offend with it. But seriously, giving yourself an insignificant damage boost whilst giving up the possibility of completely negating an attack (block with endurance) or doubling your own damage (critical with spirit) just seems silly.

Topic open for discussion.

Str Clerics are a thing of the past since Invincible was nerfed End/Str is the way to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rokaraged (Post 10182)

There lot to say about Stfye's observation about the weapons. (Andy if i'm correct anyway USES 2H SWORD)

For one he says the axe damage is inconsistent.. While it is to the axe's discredit i must agree its true, its more viable with spr builds because of heavy skill crits. There is NO COOLDOWN between skills so the 1.5 attack speed does not come into play when you are spamming your skills.

Not to mention he also states the axe's is much better for dealing damage against bosses. The axe is almost much better at cleaving enemies with higher defense. The damage of the axe is inconsistent but its usually very high. The 1 handed sword on the other hand is consistently low.

2handed swords take the middle ground between the weapons...and well it sucks IMo too.

Andy is a 1Hand Sword user...lol 1Hand sword + shield> 2 hand Sword and Axe lol..simply because its more consistent....and it makes you more useful. 2Hand fighters are good for dmg an nothing else.

Well I'm a 1h sword user, the thing with criticals is that you need to get as many hits in as possible to notice the benefits of being full SPR.

2h Axes and swords, though they give 1-2% higher critical rate their attack speed and accuracy overshadow the crits.

@ Tequila: Since we're on the subject of clerics, I'd like to say a few things.

First off: Yes, Divinity is good for SP, but it is ONLY good for SP. By putting points into SPR, you increase your chances of landing critical hits and your magic defense. Sure, you could keep leveling and keep adding points into STR, but you're already getting a lot of it each level you gain. Someone said before that for the difference between a STR build and a non-STR build to be noticeable, you'd have to be a MUCH higher level (even though that person was applying this to Fighters, it still applies to Clerics as well).

By that level, you have denied yourself a great amount of extra SP and magic defense. Clerics can't dish out damage if they can't survive, and at some point, you will need to survive magic attacks better. Furthermore, you can conserve stones by having to use them less frequently (since stones heal based on a percentage and you'd have a lot of extra SP to spare before you had to use one).

Since SPR = magic defense, SP, and critical rate, adding points into it will increase your survivability, durability, versatility, and damage. Meanwhile, STR will give you damage and only that.

Summary: Clerics benefit more from SPR. It helps them survive magic damage, increases their own damage through higher critical rates (albeit by chance), and gives them more SP to spam Heal and buffs with (when you're partying, you find yourself concentrated more on the welfare of your party members than how much damage you're putting out, if you're fighting at all). Divinity may be able to cover max SP, but it is not to be used as a substitute for SPR simply because it doesn't have the same effect.

To put it simply, you may argue that a STR/END build will be more powerful than a SPR/END build, but keep in mind what you are denying yourself by getting STR instead of SPR - you sacrifice further endurance for damage, when you could retain that damage and STILL be able to last longer in battle.

At first, people thought clerics would be more efficient for battle than support because "OMG GIANT HAMMERS AND HEAVY ARMOR". This is not the case. Clerics play the largest support role in parties regardless. They make viable soloists, but training is more efficient in a party later on and your party will expect you to be healing and buffing them more than fighting (unless the mobs are weak enough, in which case they probably won't mind). Your party will count on you to support them the entire way - if you can't survive, can't last very long, or constantly run out of SP, what good will that do for the party?

Furthermore, you seem to advocate 2:1 END/STR, yet you less strongly recommend 2:1 STR/END and definitely do not support a pure STR build. Why deny yourself an extra point in END or SPR every 3 levels when the extra points in STR will not make a huge impact until much later?

I respect your point of view, but I do not agree with it because I cannot comprehend why adding STR instead of SPR is more practical.

Actually, I take back what I said about STR for a cleric making an impact later on - it will not. By that time, you should have enough base STR to solo things efficient for you. In parties, you will almost never make use of your STR, because you usually only party for mobs that are too hard for you to defeat alone.

Therefore, SPR for a cleric is not, as you say, "useless". Rather, it is more practical, and you will make better use of it in the long run. It compensates for any magic defense you may lack and significantly boosts your chances of landing a critical hit. It will also make for better conservation of SP potions/stones and allow you to stay on the field that much longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinhchinh (Post 10317)

I really wouldn't say that.
While the crits are slower to get, the have alot more power which leaves for a nasty suprise especially with an axe.

Destrus pretty much got it..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dynamics (Post 10326)

You couldn't be more wrong. The only time the speed will allow the 'overshadowing' of the extra critical obtained from the axe and two handed sword is if you were attacking a monster for well over a dozen strikes. The attack speed bonus of .3 seconds provided by the one handed weapon is only practical on the fourth hit, (0.3 x 4 = 1.2 extra attacks), and unless you're challenging a mini-boss of some sort, it will take around 8-10 strikes to down the average monster. Using a very rough 9 attacks with a two handed weapon as a base for calculation, this would equate to 3.6 extra attacks, or 3 since we can only use positive integers (0.3 x 9 = 3.6 extra attacks). Now with that said, we've sacrificed 2% critical, but we've given ourselves 3 extra attacks from attack speed to proc the critical. The average full spirit will have 12% critical with a two handed weapon and 10% critical with the one handed weapon (presuming he has critical earrings and is using concentration tier 1 scroll). So we have a choice of 9 attacks with the 12% critical rate (from the two handed weapon), or 12 attacks with the 10% critical rate (with one handed weapon). In other words, with the two handed weapon we will have a critical occurring IN THEORY 1.08 (9 x .12) times per monster, whilst with the one handed sword, a critical occurring 1.2 (12 x 0.1) times per monster. Basically, there isn't much difference, and we obviously have to disregard the decimals, as criticals can only be measured with integers. Whilst speed will give you consistency and stability, this does not equate to significantly higher critical as you have stated, there's very little 'overshadowing.' This also fails to account for the damage of either weapons, but it's common sense the double handed weapon will deal higher damage between the two.

What I'm really trying to say is that it isn't about how many hits you get in with full spirit, it's more to do with how hard you hit when you get that elusive critical. In my opinion, if you're going to take the path of a full spirit fighter (which would clearly exist for the insane DPS), you should utilise as much damage as possible from your weapon (i.e. Use the double handed axe), as weapon attack speed makes no true difference until you dish out around 20-something hits on your enemy, which is a generally absurd amount of hits. And also, keep in mind when spamming skills, attack speed is disregarded completely.

Might I add that the accuracy for the 2handed weapons are poor, even with Aim scrolls I seem to hit alot more with 1h swords. Well, the thing is I work in parties, many mobs take well over 10 hits to kill so that might be the case.

Edit: @Rok The difference in damage really isn't that much for me, I've tried contrasting between the three different weapons, the 1h sword works best for me.

Wow all those maths made me go @___@".

Anyway, I've tried a full STR cleric before (not the whole way, maybe up to level 16 or 17) and I didn't like it at all. Easily dead, and I don't kill mobs faster enough even with all the STR, so I started adding END. So yes, full STR cleric doesn't really work (not for me anyway, I guess you'd need a lot of patience and money to raise a character like that..). After reading this topic makes me want to run into a wall though >_> I'll make sure I use that SPR/END build instead of going STR/END.

I guess you can test which weapon is better by timing how long it takes for you to kill a mob on average with each weapon, that's what I do (not very good at all those maths, =P).