I've thought of something else. If all the evil in the world is due to free will, then so is all the good in the world. If god truly lets us do whatever we like, then he is not a personal god. He does not intervene. So in essence, god did nothing except set off the big bang, since everything after that is our own "free will".

Also if he truly does believe we should have free will, he wouldn't have helped Moses out of Israel. He wouldn't have turned Lot's wife into salt, he wouldn't have sent his son down to earth to die for our sins, and so on.

Since I'm procrastinating, I guess I should stop being the devil's advocate and attack my own multiverse model:

Problems: the fact that the universes meet at A alone indicates interaction so this model is already flawed to begin with. Also, the fact that A can develop in different directions has a serious implication: let's consider a simple case, a human at event A. What the model stated is that the human at A somehow "separates" and progresses into different future courses. I am not knowledgeable in metaphysical reality but this is way too weird. But of course, science fiction can inspire even weirder stuff. For now, I'm just a happy camper at the current and sensible physics cottage. Milk and biscuits, anyone?

Problem: redundancy. In other words, two universes that possess the same energy state are just as unlikely to exist as they are likely to be happen. A good point to note is that, in quantum mechanics, there can be no two identical states in a given energy level (e.g. two electrons in the same orbital have to spin in opposite directions) so really the fact that two identical universes (read: same energy and structure) exist is somewhat redundant. Of course, the intrinsic dilemma with the Multiverse theory is that it can never be proved or disproved based on the principle that the universes cannot interact with one another (we here can't detect whatever from "other universes").

Problem: Remember the "frame of reference". Who is observing the "change of futures"? Certainly it has to be the human observer who resides in one of the universes and clearly, he/she cannot see any change in the other dimension, further implying that the support for compatibility of omnipotence and omniscience has fallen to pieces. Sure from the perspective of the deity, the "change" (misnomer, indeed, because clearly my model is all about "simultaneous and isolated occurrences in separate universes", if you look at it closely) is right there but well, remember omnipotence in religion refers to the deity's ability to change one event to another in the frame of the observer.

One can argue this point by theorising that in doing so, the deity is moving the reality from one dimension to another where the events are modified (U1 to U2, say). Again, that goes back to the primary argument: just refer back to what Vasu said about omnipotence and oniscience.

I have to admit this I almost convinced myself when I was thinking up this model. It's not unusual that one tends to be persuaded by his own product for deception, is it? lol

And the final point: I deliberately used "God" and "Deity" with no particular reference to "Jesus' or "Allah" or "Buddha" or whatever the religions might call here. And certainly I am not interested in biblical references such as Moses and Abraham or the Buddhist reference to Buddha himself. To me they're good fictions. If one of them is true, the rest aren't. Since all claim they're true and that the evidence we've observed so far all contradict the "truthfulness" (i.e. all teachings came from God) they aspire to inspire in the general public, I'd go back to worshipping the generic, omnipresent, everything-around-you, flow-of-life God. At least I don't need another person to tell me what he/she thinks God thinks.

but out of the billions on billions of millions of universes they should be likely to at least have the same kind of energy and so on?

that's just what my teacher told us after watching a video about quantum physics and general relativity.

Jik, you still haven't answered why god chose violence over peace in the OT.

lamchopz, your post mindfucked me. LOL.

...what?

That.

Simple human nature. It was a "My God is better than your God" Contest back then. He had to show that He was more powerful than the false idols, and that they shouldnt worship pagan gods.

Are you implying that those other gods/goddess actually existed? Are you a pantheist that thinks the Abrahamic god beat out all of the others?

No, im saying that humans BELIEVED those gods existed, and he had to prove to us that he was the true God.

By acting like a barbaric, petulant child. Gotcha.

Well you have to think, they wouldnt have listened any other way.

Wholesale slaughter makes much more sense than direct aural/visual communication. I think you're the one that needs to think this through.

Even Moses wasnt holy enough to be able to see more than God's coat. Why would he be able to show himself to everyone without causing mass mayhem and destruction?

Because he's allegedly omnipotent. I feel like this is becoming an old Abbot and Costello routine. First base!

Exactly! If he is omnipotent, he can just make us all think, "Yes, he exists! And he loves us! Exalt!" or something to that effect.

But didn't he 'supposedly' give us free will ?

But "times were different" then, so he absolutely had to intervene. No free will for the first born of Egypt. No free will for the worshippers of other religions and gods. No free will for the wives and daughters of the same who were raped.

LOL, we are sort of going after the low-hanging fruit with Christianity. It really doesn't hold up to any sort of scrutiny. It's almost not fair.

Oh, and before people start saying that we're deviating from deity existence in general and going into religions again, I'm just trying to prove that whatever the deity in question is not really benevolent.

Im almost certain that God never rewarded those who raped and pillaged and sinned. If you have the passage proving otherwise, please read it to me. He did kill the first borns of egypt, but i have faith that he guided their souls to heaven, as he would the just among the worshipers of other religions.

Have you all ever once considered that it's possible that every little thing that happens is part of a greater plan, one that every living being is part of? The butterfly effect?

However, this isnt really a fair argument. a multitude of those who have had much time to think about this due to age vs. 1-2 who do believe o_o

Honestly, i havent had time to study and think it over. im relatively sure that im one of the youngest ones in this thread.

Rape?
Isaiah chapter 13, in particular verses 15-16.

Talking about the fall of Babylon, which Yaweh himself was going to bring about.
--------
Pillage?
Deuteronomy 3, in particular verses 6 and 7.
This was done with the blessing of the Most High, according to verse two of that chapter:

Ah, but im relatively certain that those countries all fired the first blow. the isrealites werent like the barbarians of Europe, they didnt go around and rape and pillage. Yaweh only did that to those who wronged his followers; may i remind you that when his followers sinned they had the SEVEREST of punishments also?

Hmmm, Not sure if I said this already but ''God'' has shown many signes of the 7 deadly sins.

Sloth - Taking the 7th day to 'rest' after creating the universe/earth
Wrath - Uhm, look practially anywhere in the bible.
Vanity - I am the Lord, the only Lord, worship me and no other.'

I'm sure there are others but alas I forget.

I'm not really that much older than you Jik. You are 14 right? Well I'm 16.

Well, I know Manz is older than both of us, but I don't see any devastating arguments that came from him? (This is not meant as an insult). Age really isn't that much of a factor. I became an atheist when I was 15. I just stopped and thought is all. Just for about an hour or so.


Is it written in the Bible that god guided their souls to heaven? Is it? At any rate, he has denied them a life for something they never did.Not exactly what I would call benevolent.


So it's like, "Someone raped my sister. Let me go rape his sister back so we'll be even." IS that what you mean by casting the first stone? Whatever happened to mercy and benevolence?

Once again, those were barbaric times. And i have FAITH That he guided their souls to heaven. I believe that God sees the crying out of the spirit to him, regardless of the religion, and sees that as an attempt to form a relationship with him.

And BDex, perhaps we're living in the 7th day right now and by resting he's allowing us all to have free will. it could very well be a metaphore. Plus he was trying to make examples for us, later on, so we would observe the sabbath.

And he says to worship him because his is the way of truth, according to Christianity and Judaism.

And for wrath, you're just stating the same old arguments that we've been throwing around for the last couple pages. And you tell me IM circular...

The Bible says he murdered them all. The Bible does not say he guided them to heaven. You say that the Bible is the ultimate truth. If you are going to make unfounded presumptions, I cannot prove anything to you. Let me state it again. Whether or not the first born were lead to heaven, the thing is injustice was done in the most brutal of ways. By god. By a supposed benevolent being.


You know what? He could've made the examples without violence. And you know what else? The whole bible could bloody well be a metaphor. Maybe god is a metaphor for the FSM! Unfounded assumptions.


Okay, can you quote the posts as to where we "dealt" with wrath? When I say "dealt" I mean, have we come to an agreement? Have you refuted one of my arguments about it?

We were in the middle of the argument. I was trying to come to an agreement with you, im just saying i dont see much of a point in starting a debate and then randomly restating your opening statement (i.e. "i think God was very vengeful in the new testament" "but he had some reasoning" "but that reasoning was invalid because of so and so. Oh, and he was very vengeful"

and i meant the example of keeping the sabbath day holy.

And you keep making this a one sided debate, because the human mind and religion has two sides: Strict Logic, and Faith. You must also take it into account that God is on a higher plain; he has different rules, for all we know. you cant understand him without undestanding his side of the story, which we obviously cant unless he decides to directly communicate with us, or until we die.

Wrong. It is more like, "but that reasoning is invalid because of so and so therefore he is vengeful.

Okay.


Yes, you have finally admitted something. If a god exists such as the one you speak of, you don't really know ANYTHING about him. The ant example by Hrae comes to mind. So why do you think that going to Church every Sunday is approved by him? And for you to be right here, you have to prove a few things.


1. That god exists.
2. That he lies in a different plane.
3. That he doesn't conform to the physical rules as we know them.
4. That he can communicate with us.
5. That he is intelligent.
6. That we can understand/meet with god when we die.





And finally, this is the last and final time I will ask you to respond to the full post. In the future I will consider the points conceded.

I Believe that we rise to a somewhat higher plane when we die; we take on a higher understanding of the universe. not as high as God's, of course, but enough to comprehend a bit more than previously possible.

I believe he DOES communicate us, but he keeps some things a mystery, for whatever reason it may be.

Well, that explains everything, let's close this thread now.


:rolleyes:

The question is WHY you believe.

Also I can see you've obviously conceded you cannot prove any of those things I mentioned.

That's where the faith and feeling part of human nature comes in. Sadly, you cant see and know everything from the point we're at. it's as if your life consisted of standing behind a wall and trying to look at a painting on the other side. There's something beautiful behind it all but it's simply something that we cant see, and we wont be able to see it till that wall comes down. If that painting's not there, whether it be a picaso, van gough, or whatever (i.e. the different theories on who the Deity/Deities is/are) there's not much point in even trying to walk around the wall, other than to enjoy the walk. But for us, as we walk, and see beautiful things (i.e. Love, Happiness, Family, Peace, Childhood, Etc.) You cant help but think that there's a point to it all; a point to all the beauty and happiness (true happiness, not the happiness that a life of sin brings you), and that there's some master plan behind it all... Some final beauty, some eternal true happiness. some kind of beautiful endpoint. Besides, as you see the bad in the world you cant help but think that the mass murderers who sit on the top of the food chain (i.e. politicians) have to have some kind of cosmic, spiritual karma coming back to them.

And do you mean the list of things? The only way you can know that for sure is through dying. there's no deffinite proof i know of. perhaps you should consult one who has taken theology courses?

To answer your question finally, i believe because i have faith that there's a higher being that acctually cares and sympathizes with us. someone who makes all the crap you endure through life worth it in the end. i cant help but think that this isnt the end. that those who lie and cheat and kill succeed in the end. that those who are virtuous, but misfortunate, will die lonely and unhappy only to rot and decay. To sum it up, i believe in God because it's the only way to make sense of this world. Plus, all the teachings of Christ make total sense to me.

Brilliant. That is life. Enjoying the walk. I find pleasure in it. I like getting together with my friends for a game of football, or just to talk. I like hanging out with my family and talking about everyday things, and enjoy the company. I like life. I like living. It gives me pleasure as well as pain, but the pleasure seems to make it worth it all. Correction. YOU can't help but think that there's a point. YOU like to have the world the way YOU want it. I do not live in hope of a beautiful afterlife, or in blind unprovable belief that the "bad guys" will be punished "later". Sure, life isn't fair, but I've gotten over it. I've grown up. I don't believe in fairy tales that the prince marries the beautiful young poor girl. Most of the time the prince marries some other rich girl. I find it wrong maybe. But I don't try to rationalise it with some untrue concept.

One more thing: Just because the lack of god makes life pointless to you, doesn't make god exist.



Maybe YOU should find the answers to those questions before you subscribe to and believe a religion wholeheartedly? I HAVE posed these questions to every theist friend I was close enough to, a few agreed they didn't really know what they were on about, while a few were adamant that they just "knew" god existed.

Wrong, you believe in god because it's the only way you can have the world the way you want it to be. You can't settle for what you have, and what you see, so you decide that by thinking god exists, the world is fine. I'll repeat, just because believing in god makes your world better, that doesn't mean he really exists.

Yeah... I'm not gonna read all these pages with all the different opinions expressed or I'll be stuck on the comp for the rest of the weekend probably XD

As for me personally, I do not believe in a god. I don't think there is one 'being' able to control anything and everything that happens in the universe (or just earth). Besides, if there was a god why is there so much wrong in this world? I'm talking about wars, poverty, hunger, climate change etc.

We've covered that at one point. I think the various camps on the matter ended up being

1) A being of sufficient power to create the universe would be indifferent to our wants and needs

2) It's part of "His" plan

3) It's a dick.

It's the only way that i can survive in this world, really. Honestly, this place is going down hill. There's violence the world over, children, parents, grandparents, all dying needlessly of stupid things like hunger and lack of water, because our politicians are too greedy and oil hungry to help anyone that wont benefit them... People join gangs out of want to be excepted, only to kill and be killed. People corrupt and distort Religion (which is not the same as faith, btw) to destroy and kill. People hate, and belittle, and torture, and kill, and get killed needlessly due to sin, and greed, and hate.

The only way that this world is possibly sane is if there's a second life that will balance this out... where the just and honest and good are rewarded, where the greedy and immoral and murderous have to face up to their crimes. Where, (To use a metaphore from Brave New World) John the Savage learns he was right all along, and Mustapha Mond learns that he made a horrible, horrible mistake.

And dont get me wrong, im not saying that life should be painless, since there's no learning, nor true happiness without pain. but it's gotten to the point where needless violence is everywhere. the corrupt government in Africa, Jihad in the Middle East, the Troubles in Ireland, and none of it makes sense. I cant believe that this is the final end point. that you die and you're gone. that Love dies along with the body. that greed and murder go unpunished. that a child who gets killed by some bomb, whether it be strapped to them by their parents, or launched by a soldier, will just die, and end then and there. Life is beyond unfair, vasu. It's cruel. It's merciless. It's not just that i WANT there to be something more. I can't possibly believe it's not. I doubt me, nor many others who may feel as me, could keep their sanity otherwise. And it's not foundless; it's not baseless; It's faith based, and faith founded. Obviously, i cant find scientific evidence that will prove anything, but i can think, and feel, and hope.

Yes, because human history has been genteel up until this point. We'll just ignore the Dark Ages, the Holocaust, Pol Pot, Alexander the Great, the French Revolution, the Vikings, the various genocides committed by the Jews (if you buy into the Old Testament as history)...

Life is rough, no one gets out alive. Sure, it'd be nice if everything worked out after we died, but it's got as much truth behind it as any other sort of fiction we've created. We might as well say that the events of The Matrix have already happened.

It's hard to come to this realization, I admit. As someone with a background in religious instruction, I did tend to want to cling on to the old comforts. It's like a security blanket. It's comforting. But comfort doesn't equal the truth.

I do believe it's the truth. i know things have always sucked, but i believe that someday they'll get better. there just HAS to be more than this. Besides, there IS plenty of proof out there. Skeptics will call it lies and fakes, with no true base for calling it that, other than they dont believe it's possible, but i believe it's true.

Besides, how did the same basic concept end up existing EVERYWHERE on earth?

I have no doubt we, as humans, can move forward to a better future. I'm not sure if we will, but we certainly can. Has nothing to do with an invisible father figure.

Just because you assert that there HAS to be something more doesn't make it so. I could assert that you have an invisible troll living in your ass controlling your every move, but you'd (rightly) call me a fool.

It would be NICE if there were something more of a cosmic balancing system, but that is the height of pride and hubris. To think that something as vast and varied as the universe was created JUST FOR US is almost unthinkably arrogant.

Who's to say there arent aliens out there worshipping the same God? God didnt make it for us, we're just one tiny planet.. i dont know where anything i said there had any correlation with that, though o_o

And dont forget that the same arguments can be turned on you. Where did the laws of physics come from? what makes matter act as it does? Where did the singularity in the big bang come from? Where did matter come from? where did energy, dark energy, and dark matter come from?